Set up immersive audio with MIR Pro 3D in Cubase

[Mavros]

I am testing MIR Pro 3D in Cubase. It is impressive even using SY library close signals for which it is not meant but for which it is so nice to have them in another venue.

have put it on a 7.1.4 FX track which I called MIR and route all my instruments tracks to MIR using the trick changing the track panner. As the instrument dry signals are all in stereo this is the only way I understand to get them into MIR.

This works well but apart from the instruments icons I also have the icon of the FX channel itself labeled MIR (the track name). What does this icon do and where should I place it in the venue space? It seems to be sort of a group channel. When I mute it. it mutes all instruments routed to the FX but does it also generate reverb reflections and therefore has to be panned and dosed correcty?

Another small issue with MIR on a 7.1.4 track you always get a warning that the ambisonics setup which is designated as 7.(1).4 only 11 sound sources instead of 12. I guess I can just ignore that as I do not route anything to the LFE. my subwoofer's bass management is done by the audio-interface.

A last question. I use the instrument role presets which apparently also set a volume level. example the timpani is set to 3 dB and a flute to -18.5. I think this is the parameter natural volume. My question however how does the volume setting in the source plugin come in into this setting?
For SY library signals there are two volume parameters, CC7 and the actual microphone level. For now I set all close signals in the plugin to 0 dB which is of course relative as CC7 for the timpani is set to 90 whereas for the flute it is set to 101.

[Dietz]

Thanks for testing MIR 3D, @Mavros!

@Mavros said:
As the instrument dry signals are all in stereo this is the only way I understand to get them into MIR.

Exactly. Following the idea of working on the level of individual instruments MIR always expects stereo- or mono-sources, with stereo being the preferred input format. There is no dedicated 7.1.4 input (although I've seen people building themselves a setup with mono sources used as "virtual loudspeakers" in a surround- or 3D-setup 😉 ...).

@Mavros said:
This works well but apart from the instruments icons I also have the icon of the FX channel itself labeled MIR (the track name). What does this icon do and where should I place it in the venue space? It seems to be sort of a group channel. When I mute it. it mutes all instruments routed to the FX but does it also generate reverb reflections and therefore has to be panned and dosed correcty?

This question would be easier to answer when looking at a few screenshots, just to be sure that I see what you're seeing. I suspect that you simply talk about the (somewhat strange) way Cubase presents MIR 3D used as panning device in a mixer channel, but maybe I misunderstand your issue.

@Mavros said:
Another small issue with MIR on a 7.1.4 track you always get a warning that the ambisonics setup which is designated as 7.(1).4 only 11 sound sources instead of 12. I guess I can just ignore that as I do not route anything to the LFE. my subwoofer's bass management is done by the audio-interface.

Hmmm ... as long as you don't actively select a "raw" (i.e. un-decoded) Ambisonics setting as your Output Format, you shouldn't have to deal with Ambisonics channel counts at all. As long as the channel count of MIR 3D (as a plug-in) is identical with the channel count of the chosen Output Format, you shouldn't be seeing a warning message. A format designated as 7.(1).4 in MIR 3D will take the LFE into account, but it won't use it for any kind or output. Formats designated as 7.0.4 will ignore the LFE also for routing. - This is always noted in the short description texts I supplied for every Factory Output Format:

BTW: You must not mistake the LFE as bass management. The LFE is a channel for dedicated low-frequency content that is neither part of the signals presented in any other channel, nor should it correlate with them (read: it shouldn't carry tonal information). That's why MIR actually doesn't offer many (if any) factory presets that feed the LFE.

@Mavros said:
A last question. I use the instrument role presets which apparently also set a volume level. example the timpani is set to 3 dB and a flute to -18.5. I think this is the parameter natural volume. My question however how does the volume setting in the source plugin come in into this setting?
For SY library signals there are two volume parameters, CC7 and the actual microphone level. For now I set all close signals in the plugin to 0 dB which is of course relative as CC7 for the timpani is set to 90 whereas for the flute it is set to 101.

"Natural Volume" is a feature that was designed exclusively for the use with Vienna Instruments, now also known as Vienna Studio Series. I strongly suggest to disable it altogether in the Preferences when using MIR with any other kind of audio source, including Synchron Series.

When mixing with MIR, it is also advisable to decide which of the many volume control options in a modern DAW are used for what. Personally, I suggest using MIDI volume only for performance-related tasks within a single instrument or ensemble, while MIR volume is used for (static) Venue-specific changes to the overall balance of the active instruments. Finally, the actual automated fader rides for mixing are performed in the DAW.

HTH!

[Mavros]

Many thanks for the clarifications. Here is a screenshot of the message I get when choosing a 7.(1).4 preset on my 7.1.4 Cubase track. I get the same message for all 7.(1).4

I understand the difference between a subwoofer and an LFE channel but in an audio interface the signals on the LFE channel are in general send to the channel connected to the subwoofer and there they are combined with the low frequency (<80 Hz in my case) input coming from the the speaker bass management done by audio interface (Audient Oria). I can monitor the LFE Pre (in general no signal as I do not use it till now) and Post with the signals send there by the bass management.

In my setup I am using a VEP Pro template with all instrument sections as instances and stereo versions of the VE Pro as rack instruments and MIR Pro 3D on just one FX track in Cubase. This might be more generic than putting MIR as insert in VE Pro.

Regarding export and monitoring I have put Dolby Atmos Composer on the main output channel and a Dolby Atmos Beam behind the MIR plugin on the FX track. In this way I can monitor using my studio monitor set up (only 5.1.2 for now) and at the same time on headphone a stereo or binaural dow mix independent of the MIR channel configuration.

Now comes the difficult decision buy MIR Pro 3D only with one room pack or the "full monty suite" with all the room packs.....

[Mavros]

It was just behind the warning but here is the MIR Icon I am not sure what to do with and the two real instrument icon used for the test.

[Dietz]

Sorry, my bad - I meant to say "screenshots showing Cubase's routing".

I'm confused by your description, because on the one hand you seem to use MIR 3D directly in Vienna Ensemble, OTOH you wrote about the "trick" of MIR as panning device in Cubase. It's either / or, unless you do something extremely sophisticated. 😉 Mind you - MIR is meant to be applied to individual instrument, not as an insert strapped across a mix.

Please clarify! 😊

[Mavros]

Sorry for the confusion. My instruments are all in VEP Pro . So there I have e.g. for the Beethoven symphony I am testing with 18 instruments distributed over section based instances. I use SY Strings Pro, SY WW, SY Brass and SY Percussion. All have only the close and mid microphones activated. I am experimenting using only close, only mid or a combination of mid for the strings and close for the other instruments in MIR. (I know not ideal for MIR but I have most SY libraries).

So in Cubase I have 4 VEP Pro rack instruments and 18 midi tracks with the notes and key switches for the 4 SY libraries linked to the appropriate channel in the 4 VE Pro instances. So this is identical if I would just generate a plain stereo room mix.

Instead of routing the 18 tracks to the stereo out, they are all routed to an FX track with MIR on it. To get the instruments into MIR I changed the panners to the MIR panners on those midi tracks. That FX track now shows all instruments which I have panned in the classical instrument setup but also this MIR Icon.

With this setup you can mute instruments but to solo them you have to always solo the instrument and this overall MIR channel with the above mentioned icon. It seem to be sort of a summary folder.

Maybe I misunderstood the Cubase setup because the manual is really rudimentary for setup in the different DAW's an example project would be very helpful.

[Dietz]

Hm. For 18 instruments I would expect to see 18 MIR Icons. Each instrument or ensemble (e.g. "1st violins") should use its own, in a track insert, not as an FX send. Solo/Mute etc. would work either in MIR 3D directly, or by muting/soloing respective MIDI-channel (assuming that VE Pro returns are set to "solo defeat" in Cubase).

Please send your Cubase-project to VSL support, to my attention. I have to admit that I still have a hard time to figure out the idea behind your setup. Sorry for that.

... we had some exemplary setups available in earlier days, but they might have been lost due to the new design of VSL's website. I'll try to spot them.

Best,

[Dietz]

What I found so far:

https://www.vsl.co.at/manuals/mir-pro/routing-vep - The tutorial section from legacy Vienna MIR Pro (non-3D), but the concepts are still valid

- Demo project explained, by Jay Bacal

- Online review with lots of examples

https://www.vsl.co.at/tutorials/guides/mir-pro-3d-exploration-pack - a quite complex demo project by Yours Truly. 😉

[Mavros]

I found the solution although not in the video nor in the manual but in the assistant under additionals. There is a MIR Pro 3D Exploration Pack - Scoring v1.0 with demo projects for different Daws.

I opened the Cubase file in that package as well as the audio file required to get sound and saw that there is no FX channel with MIR on it at all in the Cubase file.

The MIR plugin is actually not needed in the actual Cubase session. It should just be running the same time. I erronously assumed that the FX channel with MIR on it was needed to get the option to switch the panner to the MIR one and beam the instrument into MIR 3D. That is not the case. As long as MIR is running at the same time you have that option. So I removed the MIR plugin from the FX channel and the mysterious icon disappeared and all instruments are still there and sound.

Thank you for the support. I now start comparing a Dolby Atmos 5.1.4 version using all SY library microphones (7 sometimes 8) of Beethoven's 5th first movement which I had scored in Dorico and exported to Cubase with a version using MIR with just the close or mid microphones as input for the instruments.

I might give some feedback on it in another recent thread related to the sale posted this week.

(the demo projects are also there by the way but they are all with the now abandoned VI instruments and the old MIR)

[Dietz]

Ahhh, ok, now I understand the issue! 😊 You mingled the workflow in VE Pro with the one suggested when using MIR 3D directly in Cubase/Nuendo. You are right, there's no need for yet another MIR instance in the DAW when you use it in VE Pro already.

Enjoy MIR 3D!

[Mavros]

Thanks again for the support I have made use of the present deal on MIR and Roompacks.

I now not only have an 18 instrument Beethoven Symphony in the Vienna Konzerthaus but also Mahler's 1st Symphony 3rd movement as well as a few John Williams classics with over 30 instruments including multiple divisi in Salzburg's Festspielhaus in 7.1.4 and can easily down mix to 5.1.2 or binaural using the Dolby Atmos Composer. All without pops or clicks.

With 18 Synchron instruments it still works with the classical Dolby Atmos setup with 7-8 microphones per instrument but it is already close to the limit with an M1Max with 64GB. Over 30 would probably not be possible.

I am not 100% done yet to find the best combination but I think using the SY libraries close microphones at the level in the Close Room -Mix preset with all others and the reverb off is probably the easiest to get a good volume balance.