Moving this off-topic discussion over here
VSL Team | Product Specialist & Media Editing
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Blending Synchron & Vienna
VSL Team | Product Specialist & Media Editing -
Actually, I am reconsidering Synchron vs. VI. In blending different libraries, I discovered that using the Synchron version allows me to blend better with a wet library. It doesn't work very well to have one french horn sounding like it's coming from the stage, and a different one coming from the room. And just adding reverb to the dry Vienna horn doesn't seem to do it. I need more experimenting before redoing all my music, but at least in some cases I think I'll be using the Synchron sounds. It's nice to have the choice. I'll survive whatever the case. If I need the dry sounds, Synchron allows that. Or I can keep using the VI sounds, at least as long as I am able to. So for me, it's no big deal. But I understand that's not the case for everyone.
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To make dry libraries like the VI Series sound like a room, you need a convolution reverb, not an algorithmic one. The latter can give you reverb, and some also offer you early reflections, but they can never eliminate the characteristic sound of dry recordings: you will always hear if something was recorded in a dry studio. A convolution reverb can do this, however, which makes it possible to blend VI libraries with wet ones.
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@LGeist110 said:
To make dry libraries like the VI Series sound like a room, you need a convolution reverb, not an algorithmic one. The latter can give you reverb, and some also offer you early reflections, but they can never eliminate the characteristic sound of dry recordings: you will always hear if something was recorded in a dry studio. A convolution reverb can do this, however, which makes it possible to blend VI libraries with wet ones.
Thanks for the tip. I was wondering about trying a convolution reverb for that purpose. I'll try it and see how it goes.
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@michael-diemer said:
I was wondering about trying a convolution reverb for that purpose. I'll try it and see how it goes.Our proposal in this matter:
https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Vienna_Software_Package/MIR_Pro_3D
😊
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library -
@Dietz said:
@michael-diemer said:
I was wondering about trying a convolution reverb for that purpose. I'll try it and see how it goes.
Our proposal in this matter:
https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Vienna_Software_Package/MIR_Pro_3D
😊
Sneaky and cheeky, but I love it!
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@LGeist110 said:
To make dry libraries like the VI Series sound like a room, you need a convolution reverb, not an algorithmic oneThis is a very shortcoming answer. The choice of reverb depends on what you want to achieve. If you want as a result a famous chamber concert or symphony, than an convolution reverb catering to orchestral rooms is great and then MIRPRO3D is unmatched in results.
If you have a mix that is hybrid, with synth, other samples or close-by voices like singers than an "algorithmic" reverb can be the better choice. It needs experimenting and a lot of reverb plugins to compare. One of my first Go-To Reverb next to MIR3D is a plate reverb. In very small doses, it makes any instrument sound like you sit close by but it still resonates. Then I go through more traditional reverbs to hybrid and experimental ones like Arturia Fragments.
If it still sounds bad, use "Valhalla Shimmer" - this makes every sound sounding great, until the last echo fades out. 😀
My tip for the most uncommon reverb is Wave's Abbey Road Echo Chamber: It bringes the last symphony orchestra back to the roots and even today sounds surprisingly different. It also teaches you how - in the old days - reverb was done the "old school" way.
So, the usual answer is : It all depends - what you want to achieve.
And to come back to the original topic of VI instruments: The base of all these possibilities is to have absolutely dry sounds so that the choice of virtual rooms is yours. .
Too old for Rock n Roll. Too young for 9th symphonies. Wagner Lover, IRCAM Alumni. Double Bass player starting in low Es. I am where noise is music. -
@Dietz said:
@michael-diemer said:
I was wondering about trying a convolution reverb for that purpose. I'll try it and see how it goes.
Our proposal in this matter:
https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Vienna_Software_Package/MIR_Pro_3D
😊
I probably can't use it, since I use Windows 7. Not interested in upgrading to 10 or 11. Been there, done that, hate it.
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@Holgmeister said:
@LGeist110 said:
To make dry libraries like the VI Series sound like a room, you need a convolution reverb, not an algorithmic one
This is a very shortcoming answer. The choice of reverb depends on what you want to achieve. If you want as a result a famous chamber concert or symphony, than an convolution reverb catering to orchestral rooms is great and then MIRPRO3D is unmatched in results.
If you have a mix that is hybrid, with synth, other samples or close-by voices like singers than an "algorithmic" reverb can be the better choice. It needs experimenting and a lot of reverb plugins to compare. One of my first Go-To Reverb next to MIR3D is a plate reverb. In very small doses, it makes any instrument sound like you sit close by but it still resonates. Then I go through more traditional reverbs to hybrid and experimental ones like Arturia Fragments.
If it still sounds bad, use "Valhalla Shimmer" - this makes every sound sounding great, until the last echo fades out. 😀
My tip for the most uncommon reverb is Wave's Abbey Road Echo Chamber: It bringes the last symphony orchestra back to the roots and even today sounds surprisingly different. It also teaches you how - in the old days - reverb was done the "old school" way.
So, the usual answer is : It all depends - what you want to achieve.
And to come back to the original topic of VI instruments: The base of all these possibilities is to have absolutely dry sounds so that the choice of virtual rooms is yours. .
I do orchestral music, so I need a concert hall sound. I have Spaces reverb (original edition). I can also use the Bricasti impulses. I also have Flexverb for a good algo.
What I've been doing is using the Flexverb on a bus, and using sends. Pretty decent results, but the dry VI instruments do sound too prominent.
I see two ways I could go here. One is to use the Synchronized Sp. Edition, which has impulses of course. For my GPO inst's, I can use the convo reverb on the Aria Player. And for my Cine Sample inst's, I can use a convo or algo reverb on a bus. (I don't use the Kontakt reverbs, of course).
Two, I could just use Spaces or Bricasti on a bus, and send all the insts there, but instead of algo it would be convo. I think the second method makes more sense.
The kicker is that I would have to redo all of my mixes. Which I probably should do anyway, since my mixing probably breaks all kinds of rules.
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@Dietz said:
@LGeist110 said:
Sneaky and cheeky
As English is not my first language, that sounds rather harsh in direct translation, but I assume you meant it facetiously, didn't you?
Yes, "cheeky" means "frech", but it can do so mildly. I should have used "sly" as it is clearer, less ambiguous. "Sly" is often used in a more humorous way, "with a wink".
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@Holgmeister said:
@LGeist110 said:
To make dry libraries like the VI Series sound like a room, you need a convolution reverb, not an algorithmic one
This is a very shortcoming answer. The choice of reverb depends on what you want to achieve. If you want as a result a famous chamber concert or symphony, than an convolution reverb catering to orchestral rooms is great and then MIRPRO3D is unmatched in results.
If you have a mix that is hybrid, with synth, other samples or close-by voices like singers than an "algorithmic" reverb can be the better choice. It needs experimenting and a lot of reverb plugins to compare. One of my first Go-To Reverb next to MIR3D is a plate reverb. In very small doses, it makes any instrument sound like you sit close by but it still resonates. Then I go through more traditional reverbs to hybrid and experimental ones like Arturia Fragments.
If it still sounds bad, use "Valhalla Shimmer" - this makes every sound sounding great, until the last echo fades out. 😀
My tip for the most uncommon reverb is Wave's Abbey Road Echo Chamber: It bringes the last symphony orchestra back to the roots and even today sounds surprisingly different. It also teaches you how - in the old days - reverb was done the "old school" way.
So, the usual answer is : It all depends - what you want to achieve.
And to come back to the original topic of VI instruments: The base of all these possibilities is to have absolutely dry sounds so that the choice of virtual rooms is yours. .
You‘re right of course. I simply didn’t have the time for a more sophisticated response.
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@michael-diemer said:
@Holgmeister said:
@LGeist110 said:
To make dry libraries like the VI Series sound like a room, you need a convolution reverb, not an algorithmic one
This is a very shortcoming answer. The choice of reverb depends on what you want to achieve. If you want as a result a famous chamber concert or symphony, than an convolution reverb catering to orchestral rooms is great and then MIRPRO3D is unmatched in results.
If you have a mix that is hybrid, with synth, other samples or close-by voices like singers than an "algorithmic" reverb can be the better choice. It needs experimenting and a lot of reverb plugins to compare. One of my first Go-To Reverb next to MIR3D is a plate reverb. In very small doses, it makes any instrument sound like you sit close by but it still resonates. Then I go through more traditional reverbs to hybrid and experimental ones like Arturia Fragments.
If it still sounds bad, use "Valhalla Shimmer" - this makes every sound sounding great, until the last echo fades out. 😀
My tip for the most uncommon reverb is Wave's Abbey Road Echo Chamber: It bringes the last symphony orchestra back to the roots and even today sounds surprisingly different. It also teaches you how - in the old days - reverb was done the "old school" way.
So, the usual answer is : It all depends - what you want to achieve.
And to come back to the original topic of VI instruments: The base of all these possibilities is to have absolutely dry sounds so that the choice of virtual rooms is yours. .
I do orchestral music, so I need a concert hall sound. I have Spaces reverb (original edition). I can also use the Bricasti impulses. I also have Flexverb for a good algo.
What I've been doing is using the Flexverb on a bus, and using sends. Pretty decent results, but the dry VI instruments do sound too prominent.
I see two ways I could go here. One is to use the Synchronized Sp. Edition, which has impulses of course. For my GPO inst's, I can use the convo reverb on the Aria Player. And for my Cine Sample inst's, I can use a convo or algo reverb on a bus. (I don't use the Kontakt reverbs, of course).
Two, I could just use Spaces or Bricasti on a bus, and send all the insts there, but instead of algo it would be convo. I think the second method makes more sense.
The kicker is that I would have to redo all of my mixes. Which I probably should do anyway, since my mixing probably breaks all kinds of rules.
Hi Michael, Although I own Mir 3D Pro (full) I recently, with the Goodbye VI sales going on, purchased the MirX Sage Gateshead convolution reverb. I use it for most of my VI libraries. It's amazing! Untill the end of October its for sale for just €39. There are more of them. The Grosser Saal, Mozart Saal and Pernegg Monastry to name the ones of interest (orchestral Music) to you. If I were you I'd look into this.
Best,
Willem
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@Mary said:
@michael-diemer said:
@Holgmeister said:
@LGeist110 said:
To make dry libraries like the VI Series sound like a room, you need a convolution reverb, not an algorithmic one
This is a very shortcoming answer. The choice of reverb depends on what you want to achieve. If you want as a result a famous chamber concert or symphony, than an convolution reverb catering to orchestral rooms is great and then MIRPRO3D is unmatched in results.
If you have a mix that is hybrid, with synth, other samples or close-by voices like singers than an "algorithmic" reverb can be the better choice. It needs experimenting and a lot of reverb plugins to compare. One of my first Go-To Reverb next to MIR3D is a plate reverb. In very small doses, it makes any instrument sound like you sit close by but it still resonates. Then I go through more traditional reverbs to hybrid and experimental ones like Arturia Fragments.
If it still sounds bad, use "Valhalla Shimmer" - this makes every sound sounding great, until the last echo fades out. 😀
My tip for the most uncommon reverb is Wave's Abbey Road Echo Chamber: It bringes the last symphony orchestra back to the roots and even today sounds surprisingly different. It also teaches you how - in the old days - reverb was done the "old school" way.
So, the usual answer is : It all depends - what you want to achieve.
And to come back to the original topic of VI instruments: The base of all these possibilities is to have absolutely dry sounds so that the choice of virtual rooms is yours. .
I do orchestral music, so I need a concert hall sound. I have Spaces reverb (original edition). I can also use the Bricasti impulses. I also have Flexverb for a good algo.
What I've been doing is using the Flexverb on a bus, and using sends. Pretty decent results, but the dry VI instruments do sound too prominent.
I see two ways I could go here. One is to use the Synchronized Sp. Edition, which has impulses of course. For my GPO inst's, I can use the convo reverb on the Aria Player. And for my Cine Sample inst's, I can use a convo or algo reverb on a bus. (I don't use the Kontakt reverbs, of course).
Two, I could just use Spaces or Bricasti on a bus, and send all the insts there, but instead of algo it would be convo. I think the second method makes more sense.
The kicker is that I would have to redo all of my mixes. Which I probably should do anyway, since my mixing probably breaks all kinds of rules.
Hi Michael, Although I own Mir 3D Pro (full) I recently, with the Goodbye VI sales going on, purchased the MirX Sage Gateshead convolution reverb. I use it for most of my VI libraries. It's amazing! Untill the end of October its for sale for just €39. There are more of them. The Grosser Saal, Mozart Saal and Pernegg Monastry to name the ones of interest (orchestral Music) to you. If I were you I'd look into this.
Best,
Willem
Thanks for the tip, but as I said, I am using Windows 7, and it's likely I would not be able to use that. I am content to use what still is viable for Windows 7. Plenty of stuff out there.
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@michael-diemer said:
@Mary said:
@michael-diemer said:
@Holgmeister said:
@LGeist110 said:
To make dry libraries like the VI Series sound like a room, you need a convolution reverb, not an algorithmic one
This is a very shortcoming answer. The choice of reverb depends on what you want to achieve. If you want as a result a famous chamber concert or symphony, than an convolution reverb catering to orchestral rooms is great and then MIRPRO3D is unmatched in results.
If you have a mix that is hybrid, with synth, other samples or close-by voices like singers than an "algorithmic" reverb can be the better choice. It needs experimenting and a lot of reverb plugins to compare. One of my first Go-To Reverb next to MIR3D is a plate reverb. In very small doses, it makes any instrument sound like you sit close by but it still resonates. Then I go through more traditional reverbs to hybrid and experimental ones like Arturia Fragments.
If it still sounds bad, use "Valhalla Shimmer" - this makes every sound sounding great, until the last echo fades out. 😀
My tip for the most uncommon reverb is Wave's Abbey Road Echo Chamber: It bringes the last symphony orchestra back to the roots and even today sounds surprisingly different. It also teaches you how - in the old days - reverb was done the "old school" way.
So, the usual answer is : It all depends - what you want to achieve.
And to come back to the original topic of VI instruments: The base of all these possibilities is to have absolutely dry sounds so that the choice of virtual rooms is yours. .
I do orchestral music, so I need a concert hall sound. I have Spaces reverb (original edition). I can also use the Bricasti impulses. I also have Flexverb for a good algo.
What I've been doing is using the Flexverb on a bus, and using sends. Pretty decent results, but the dry VI instruments do sound too prominent.
I see two ways I could go here. One is to use the Synchronized Sp. Edition, which has impulses of course. For my GPO inst's, I can use the convo reverb on the Aria Player. And for my Cine Sample inst's, I can use a convo or algo reverb on a bus. (I don't use the Kontakt reverbs, of course).
Two, I could just use Spaces or Bricasti on a bus, and send all the insts there, but instead of algo it would be convo. I think the second method makes more sense.
The kicker is that I would have to redo all of my mixes. Which I probably should do anyway, since my mixing probably breaks all kinds of rules.
Hi Michael, Although I own Mir 3D Pro (full) I recently, with the Goodbye VI sales going on, purchased the MirX Sage Gateshead convolution reverb. I use it for most of my VI libraries. It's amazing! Untill the end of October its for sale for just €39. There are more of them. The Grosser Saal, Mozart Saal and Pernegg Monastry to name the ones of interest (orchestral Music) to you. If I were you I'd look into this.
Best,
Willem
Thanks for the tip, but as I said, I am using Windows 7, and it's likely I would not be able to use that. I am content to use what still is viable for Windows 7. Plenty of stuff out there.
MIRx is not a standalone software but an add-on for Vienna Instruments Pro, where you have a convolution reverb within the sampler. By buying it, you’ll get access to the impulse responses you can download for VI Pro.
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Thanks for that. I did try some of the impulses out, but haven't decided yet whether to buy it. I may give it another look now that I''m reconsidering my mixing method.
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Actually, since I blend different libraries, the Mir impulses would only target Vienna Instruments. No use to my other libraries.
What I'm wondering about, however, is Vienna Ensemble Pro, which I have, but don't use. Since it's possible to place other libraries' instruments on it, would that avail me of the impulses?
Otherwise, I need a standalone reverb unit, like Spaces, to run all my libraries through, so they all have the same impulses. I am currently experimenting with Spaces, and getting good results. I turn on the built-in reverb for my EWSO Play instruments, and route my Vienna sounds to Spaces, NW Hall, which is the same reverb on the Play synth. Then I adjust the sends on my VI sounds to match the amount of reverb on the Play synth. Puts them all in the same space. This does seem better than using the Flexverb algo reverb, which is what I've been doing.
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After trying EW Spaces on my reverb bus, I have to say the difference is not that great. In short, the algo reverb I'm using, Flexverb, sounds fine. Even better, but that may be due to my mixing being specific to it.
When you think about it, good algo reverbs also have "rooms." They emulate the convo reverbs. In fact, you could say they are better, because in a room impulse, you're getting the imperfections of that space. Whereas in an algo reverb, it is mathematically constructed not to have imperfections.
In any case, not much difference to my ears. Which is a relief. I've been redoing all my music with the algo, and don't relish the thought of mixing them again with convo. Bottom line: either works fine, but I'll stay with the algo since that's what I've been doing.
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I'm not sure how much longer this thread will be allowed to continue, since it has drifted off topic, now being primarily about reverb in general, but...
I'm trying convo reverb again. For orchestral music, it does seem better. My music has more depth with it. I downloaded Convology XT last night, as well as some Lexicon impulses, to go with the Bricassti. Flexverb algo reverb sounds rather dull and dry by comparison.
So now I'm looking for a good convo reverb. Can't use Spaces II, as that probably won't work on Windows 7. Also, EW does not allow demos, so I can't find out. I will be looking around for any convos that still work on Windows 7. Or alternatively, impulses I can load in Convology (or Perfect Space, which I have from my Cakewalk days, which works fine on Reaper, even though it is 32 bit).
I can still use Spaces I, but it only has a few halls. I can upgrade to Spaces II for 50.00, but again, it probably won't work on Windows 7. Not sure if Altiverb would work, or Waves. Guess I'll just have to do searching, and demoing.
Wish me luck!
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After some research, I found that Convology XT can load true-stereo impulse files. No less an authority than Sonic Axiom, creator of AVConverter, swears by it. Using AVConverter, I converted the Lexicon IR90 IR files to true stereo, and the result is incredible. The best reverb I have ever heard, at least on my music.
So that's it, I have found my go-to reverb. Works perfectly on Windows 7. So I'm all set. For now, anyway...
