Best Strategy for VEP with Dorico (template build)?

[wing]

Inside Dorico I use NotePerformer for most of my orchestral instruments (including Synchron NPPE!). However, I much prefer some of my own pianos, harps, and percussion (including various extended technique libraries like VI prepared piano and XXL TamTam etc). This allows me to write with the best of both worlds.

However my Dorico templates have really grown out of control, starting at ~27 MB with a blank flow before adding a single note of music.

I tested by removing all but NotePerformer and a single instance of VEP. Now I got my template file down to around ~2 MB and it's loading way faster, so I think VEP is the way to go! However I have some "noob" questions since I bought VEP awhile back on sale but haven't used it much.

First let me describe my goal: alongside my dorico template with an instance of VEP, I could have a VEP template project file which automatically connects with a playback template (using overrides in Dorico for the instruments where I do not want to use NP). Inside the VEP template I could have my various pianos, harps, percussion, and alternate special technique libraries loaded. I intend to map each one via midi channel (which I will update my expression maps accordingly, this much I know how to do and have tested before). Finally, if I wish to make any changes on this particular project, I'd like to be able to save it so I don't overwrite my template, but have it accessible with that specific project.

So my questions:

1. To achieve the above, inside VEP should I be saving as a 'Server Project' or an 'Instance Project'? Pretty confused about the differences there since I tried both and they seem to behave similarly. (I am going to go out on a limb here to guess that in a heirachy fashion, Instances are the 'children' to Server (parent)? So a server project saves multiple instances?)
2. If I want to create a playback template in Dorico which always connects to a pre-loaded VEP template, how can I go about this? Would that require a server project or just an instance using the same name? What I imagine is that I could load this playback template and with VEP open in the background, it would know where to connect.
3. Should I keep everything in one instance – or create separate instances for every instrument type? (e.g., should I create just a 'Piano' instance, 'percussion' instance, etc.? Or just keep them all in one until I run out of midi channels (16?)? Pros or Cons around that for my workflow?
4. If I make changes to the VEP project which are specific to my composition, and wish to save it (I usually store this type of thing inside my project folder for the composition so it's organized with the dorico file) – will there be any issues with Dorico connecting to this new version when I reopen the projects at a later date? (or will it be confused, looking instead at the original template project?)

Hope that all makes sense. Any additional advice is welcome – thank you!

(also if tech specs matter, I'm using VEP7 on Mac (ventura) with Dorico 5.1)

[wing]

(apologies a variant of this post was posted twice – I got no confirmation from the first time I posted and my browser was acting funny, so I thought it didn't go through!)

[mducharme]

I use a single instance of VE Pro with everything loaded in it - that way you can use VE Pro as a mixer, bypass the less capable Dorico mixer and send the audio back on a single stereo return to Dorico. The more you divide things up into instances, the more that you rely on the mixer in the notation program or DAW that is using VE Pro. If the mixer is fully featured this isn't an issue, but in the case of Dorico it is not. Generally the only reason to divide things into multiple instances in the first place is if you need multiple computers sharing the load. Back in the day when computers were weaker, composers might have needed several "slave systems" to handle individual sections and so they would split up brass, strings, percussion etc into different instances.

You can make a playback template in Dorico that uses your VE Pro but be very careful here, especially if your VE Pro is coupled and saved with the DAW - it's going to track how many of an instrument you are asking for vs. how many in the template. If you exceed that quantity, it's automatically going to try to load a second instance, which is going to result in VE Pro trying to pop up again and load up another copy of your full orchestra on top of the first one. To prevent this you might have to edit the playback template and remove the endpoint from it. Try to make sure that you load up the largest ensemble that might possibly need when making the template in the first place as a result.

And no, you can make specific VEP projects with the composition. I actually usually allow Dorico to save this with the Dorico file instead of decoupling, but you could save it in the same folder with the Dorico file if you decouple if you wish to do that.

[mducharme]

Also to get the best results out of the template, you're going to need to put some work into balancing it, which means taking several pieces with known good recordings that balance well for real orchestra in real situations (not just in the mixing booth) and using them in your "master file" as different flows so that you can adjust the balance. VSL Synchron is pretty good in general but it can still use some adjustments here and there in my experience.

[wing]

Great, thank you so much @mducharme. That's very helpful. I definitely agree that Dorico's mixer is lacking and look forward to using one that is easier to use.

So one last question - when I go to save VEP templates and/or specific projects to a composition, should I use - File > Save Server Project or Instance > Save Project ? In particular if I'm only using one instance. My guess is that a server project is a container for multiple instances and therefore if I'm using one instance then just the Instance > Save Project is probably fine. But I googled around and couldn't find a clear answer on this, so I just want to make sure before moving forward I am saving with the correct file to avoid issues down the line.

[mducharme]

@wing said:
So one last question - when I go to save VEP templates and/or specific projects to a composition, should I use - File > Save Server Project or Instance > Save Project ?

Use a Server Project, otherwise to reload your saved project you have to go into Vienna Ensemble Pro and create a new instance and name the instance before you can open the project. If you save it as a server project then you can open it immediately after going into VE Pro without having to create and name an instance first.

One other thing - my experience is that depending on how I saved the project, it could crash VE Pro when opening the server project - essentially making the server project unopenable. After some trial and error, I discovered that if I chose "Save Server Project" in VE Pro while Dorico was currently connected to VE Pro, that project would now be messed up so that if I tried to reopen it later, it would crash on reopening. However, if I closed Dorico before saving the server project so that Dorico was no longer connected to VE Pro, it would then save correctly and VE Pro would reopen the server project correctly with no crash.

I think the cause of the crash probably just one plugin I am using that is getting confused by the audio engine state changing underneath it (because when saved the audio engine was running and connected, but when reopened, Dorico isn't running yet and the audio engine was down, so it freaked out and crashed all of VE Pro due to the chicken-and-egg situation). Because of that is why I started using VE Pro in coupled mode to save the whole VE Pro server project with my Dorico project inside the file - I lost some work a couple times on my template due to saving on top of an old copy of the file while Dorico was running, which I then couldn't reopen and had to go back to my backup system to get an old copy of the VE Pro server project. When the project gets saved with Dorico in coupled mode it always reopens correctly. I still also save the server project separately, but I'm careful to close Dorico before hitting the save button in VE Pro, and occasionally "Save As" a new file just in case so that I'm not accidentally overwriting a good version of a server project with a bugged/crashing one.

[wing]

@mducharme said:

@wing said:
So one last question - when I go to save VEP templates and/or specific projects to a composition, should I use - File > Save Server Project or Instance > Save Project ?

Use a Server Project, otherwise to reload your saved project you have to go into Vienna Ensemble Pro and create a new instance and name the instance before you can open the project. If you save it as a server project then you can open it immediately after going into VE Pro without having to create and name an instance first.

One other thing - my experience is that depending on how I saved the project, it could crash VE Pro when opening the server project - essentially making the server project unopenable. After some trial and error, I discovered that if I chose "Save Server Project" in VE Pro while Dorico was currently connected to VE Pro, that project would now be messed up so that if I tried to reopen it later, it would crash on reopening. However, if I closed Dorico before saving the server project so that Dorico was no longer connected to VE Pro, it would then save correctly and VE Pro would reopen the server project correctly with no crash.

I think the cause of the crash probably just one plugin I am using that is getting confused by the audio engine state changing underneath it (because when saved the audio engine was running and connected, but when reopened, Dorico isn't running yet and the audio engine was down, so it freaked out and crashed all of VE Pro due to the chicken-and-egg situation). Because of that is why I started using VE Pro in coupled mode to save the whole VE Pro server project with my Dorico project inside the file - I lost some work a couple times on my template due to saving on top of an old copy of the file while Dorico was running, which I then couldn't reopen and had to go back to my backup system to get an old copy of the VE Pro server project. When the project gets saved with Dorico in coupled mode it always reopens correctly. I still also save the server project separately, but I'm careful to close Dorico before hitting the save button in VE Pro, and occasionally "Save As" a new file just in case so that I'm not accidentally overwriting a good version of a server project with a bugged/crashing one.

Wow, thank you so much for the detailed advice! Great, I will keep all this in mind. I look forward to digging in. Cheers!