@michael-diemer said:

Another question dissolves into the void that is this forum...

Perhaps a clarification will stimulate a response. I am not talking about reverb, which is the usual way to add depth, but front-to-back placement or panning. There are various plugins which facilitate this. I'm asking if anyone has used them, and how it worked for them.

Adding "Depth" is a form of reverb, it's usually just a shorter one.
I use MIR with all my VI instruments, so I haven't had the need to try Panagement.

Thank you for responding, saxmand. I was beginning to worry that this would another response where I just give up. Then somebody responds 1 year later, but I have by then forgotten the post...

On Panagement, they have a reverb, but I don't use it, preferring the algo reverb I have on my bus. I use a slider to move instruments back and forth. but I have a hard time deciding just where to put them. I tried using Garritan's positions in the Stereo Stage feature on the Aria player, but those percentages are way too deep. but if I reduce them by 50-75%, they seem to work. For example, GPO has percussion at 90%. There are some other oddities, such as violins 1st are at 20%, 2nd violins are at 50%.

I was hoping that someone is using that plugin, and could help me out with the settings. But it appears that most here have moved on to Synchron, where this is predetermined. Maybe I need to join the VI Control forum, I'm sure I would get some responses there. In fact, that is where I heard about this plugin. but that forum is such a time-sucker. Too many way too long threads about AI and other such things. So I prefer to just lurk there.

I indeed have moved on to Synchron libraries from VI, but be aware there are two avenues to pursue positioning for VI instruments in the VSL ecosystem.

First, you can buy individual MIRx venues that are directly assignable within the VI Pro player. These include positioning options.

https://www.vsl.co.at/en/MIRx/MIRx_Bundle

Second, you can buy MIR Pro 3D, a sophisticated graphical tool for among other things user-adjustable positioning.

https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Vienna_Software_Package/MIR_Pro_3D

If interested in MIRx, you would want to get it during the current sale which technically shows expiring as of Sep 30th, but it wouldn't surprise me if this was extended another month, especially since it looks like it is still on sale as of this afternoon, Sep 31st.

@michael-diemer said:
Perhaps a clarification will stimulate a response. I am not talking about reverb, which is the usual way to add depth, but front-to-back placement or panning. There are various plugins which facilitate this. I'm asking if anyone has used them, and how it worked for them.

Vienna MIR Pro (also its most recent 3D version) has been invented with exactly these tasks in mind:

-> https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Vienna_Software_Package/MIR_Pro_3D#!Product_Info

(... scroll down to the headline "The MIR Factor") for a short overview).

Many mistake this engine as "just another reverb", but reverb is only one of its features, and actually one that simply "happens" along the way. Primarily, MIR 3D is meant to take care for all aspects of spatialisation, both for the direct signal and the "wet" response from the space a specific instrument has been (virtually) put into.

Alan Meyerson even came up with the great idea of employing it as an efficient and automatable "front/back" panner in a mono context. 😊 He explains this unusual approach in a chat about the mix of the score for "Mank":

https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Vienna_Software_Package/MIR_Pro_3D#!MIR_Stories

Don't hesitate to ask if you have further questions!

Kind regards,

@DaddyO said:
If interested in MIRx, you would want to get it during the current sale which technically shows expiring as of Sep 30th,

Thanks for sharing that info! Just to avoid possible misunderstandings: MIR 3D development will _not_ end with Vienna Instruments being discontinued. 😊

Thanks Dietz and DaddyO, I will definitely look into those possibilities.

@Dietz said:

@DaddyO said:
If interested in MIRx, you would want to get it during the current sale which technically shows expiring as of Sep 30th,

Thanks for sharing that info! Just to avoid possible misunderstandings: MIR 3D development will _not_ end with Vienna Instruments being discontinued. 😊

That's good to know as it's a great piece of software I use for both live and lots of different sample libraries (also non vsl things)

@Dietz said:

@DaddyO said:
If interested in MIRx, you would want to get it during the current sale which technically shows expiring as of Sep 30th,

Thanks for sharing that info! Just to avoid possible misunderstandings: MIR 3D development will _not_ end with Vienna Instruments being discontinued. 😊

That's the best news I've had in ages. Does this mean VSL plan to continue releasing at least some drier libraries (maybe using the Synchron B stage, as used for the smaller Duality ensembles)? I do hope so.

MIR is absolutely fantastic for this. When I first got it, before I even really had much idea how it was supposed to work, I did a quick rough mix of something and sent it to someone with whom I was working. He was astonished at the difference between that and the previous version of the track which just had conventional reverb.

As I've said before, I don't think of MIR as a reverb (though it can do that really well), I think of it as my room, i.e. either a live room in a studio, a concert hall or whatever. I generally also apply a bit of reverb using a send. It's the way I learned how to make records: put your musicians in a room, record them including the sound of the room. Maybe add some reverb to some sounds, with a chamber, plate or outboard box. Actually the MIRacle algo-reverb that comes free with MIR is really good for this, although I've got quite a few others as well.

After demo-ing two of the impulse responses (Great and Mozart), I have come to the conclusion that the best way for me to add depth is with the trusty reverb bus. Keep It Simple, as the saying goes. This is also because I mix different libraries. Mixing for example, EW Symphonic Orchestra with the very dry VI Special Edition can be challenging, but it's easier if you keep things as simple as possible. I add no reverb to EW, then enough to VI to more or less equalize them. I use other libraries as well, so this approach makes more sense to me.

Hi @michael diemer.

Just wanted to elaborate a bit more on my response, now that I awoke this thread.

Just wanna concur with @nick.halliwell. I don't see MIR so much as an impulse only, but as much as a placement and balancing tool.
What's great is that you can record live players yourself dry, and place them in the room with your other instruments.
I do run the instruments through a sweetener bus (longer algorithmic reverb) after MIR.
Also, I take other solo instruments, like the Westwood Untamed series, use the Close mic and place them in MIR like I do with any Vienna Instrument sample, and they play along side each other.
Finding this way of mixing did take a little bit time (though using the MIR presets is practical) to wrap my head around, as finding your way around MIR takes a bit longer than a standard Impulse Response or Algorithmic reverb.

In the end it's about finding the tools you like and use them. Sounds like you did 😊 Happy music making.

Fyi, I use the Synchron stage. Mozart is a bit narrow/dry for film stuff and Great hall to washy I found. Before Synchron stage I used the teldex.

Thanks Saxmand. The more complicated things get for me, the more confused I get. Keeping it simple for me is a necessity. Adding new levels to my process never seems to work out. and since I'm just a hobbyist, concerned mostly with getting my music sounding decent to me, simple is best.

Incidentally, I do have the Synchronized version of Special Edition 1. I did the crossgrade several years ago. But I ended up using the default setting, no reverb at all. At which point I realized I might as well go back to the VI Player. Also, I recently made an attempt to do my music on Linux. I did that for a year or so, and the VI player was stable, while the Synchron player frequently crashed. There were also GUI issues. Obviously, neither is intended for Linux, and I eventually back to Windows (7) as doing music on Linux was just too tortuous a process.

I guess will be one of those Luddites who continue on the VI Player, while the rest of the world goes by, constantly buying new hardware to satisfy Microsoft, Apple and the addiction of always having the newest, best, most etc. Exactly where I want to be.

I just remembered that it's possible to use the Sp. Edition instruments with the Synchron Stage panning, but not the impulses, by choosing a no-con reverb setting, with or without algo reverb. I like the placement of the library with those pan parameters. They sound better to my ears than my own panning. So I'm taking a second look at it. I can guess at the pan values on the GUI, and try to match those with my other inst. libraries. something to do on a Saturday night...

For depth you need early reflections. That's what Saxmand mentioned with "Adding "Depth" is a form of reverb, it's usually just a shorter one.". Panagement or Synchron Player can do this. Another option is to reduce the decay of a room impulse response below 10 msec. Adjust the width accordingly. An additional approach to add depth is the MIR engine with it's profiles.

@vokars said:

For depth you need early reflections. That's what Saxmand mentioned with "Adding "Depth" is a form of reverb, it's usually just a shorter one.". Panagement or Synchron Player can do this. Another option is to reduce the decay of a room impulse response below 10 msec. Adjust the width accordingly. An additional approach to add depth is the MIR engine with it's profiles.

Thank you for those tips, vokars. That's the kind of info I was looking for.

On a further note re: the pans in Special Edition, Synchronized version: it turns out that they are almost exactly the ones I have been using for years with my other libraries. Convergent evolution, I guess...