How Much Algo Reverb Do You Use?

[michael diemer]

In the VI Player, the default is 30. that seems like a lot, especially if you are going to use a reverb bus to tie everything together at the end. So, what are you using? Half that much? Less? just a bit, like 7?

Thank you, md

[Beat Kaufmann]

It varies, of course - usually between about 15 and 20% - rarely 25%.

Examples here: Synchron-Libraries-Audio-Demos - of coarse it is all a matter of taste.

All the best

Beat

[michael diemer]

Thanks, but another question: I am using the Special Edition on the original Vienna Inst.player, not Synchron. The reason is, I'm doing music now on Linux. While Synchron works on Linux, it throws errors now and then. The old VI player works perfectly, however.

So, I am asking about the slider on that player, where the default is 30. Is that 30 %? Or  were you talking about the Synchron player? I'm not sure that 30 on the VI player is the same as 30 on the Synchron player.

[michael diemer]

I suppose it doesn't matter, the process is the same, whether you're using the VI player or Synchron. I have spent the past year transitioning to Linux, and just recently was able to make Vienna libraries work.  So i haven't been using them for awhile. In going back to them, I again had to confront the reverb issue, always a difficult one, for me at least.  I tried using the default setting of 30 on the VI player (not Synchron),  and, as in the past, found it is too much. I'm using 5 on the flutes, 7 on the clarinets, 10 on the Horns, 12 on the brass, 14 on the percussion. Then routing everything to my convo reverb, where I'm using the Bricasti impulses on the Cakewalk Perfect Space plugin, with send levels of about 32. Pretty much what I did on Windows, except I was using EW Spaces from my convo reverb.

It was a great joy to be able get Vienna sounds again in my music.  you have to jump through a lot of hoops to do so, and it's a very steep learning curve. but for me worth it. I gave up on Windows after Windows 7. At this point, I am using everything I did on windows, except for East West stuff. but with Vienna now working, I don't need it. I also have Cine Samples going, Garritan, plus some other odds and ends. I have completely transitioned over to Linux now.  It would be so much better if companies made their products work on Linux, and not just windows and Mac. but fortunately it is now possible for probably 90% of software.

[Beat Kaufmann]

Hello Michael
When we talk about the tail portion, it is independent of the library product. I use the default setting for the synchronous libraries. The libraries then sound as dry as they were recorded in the sync stage. With the room microphones, you can add some room (not reverb), which shifts the instruments a bit into the depth. What is then still necessary is tail - which you are talking about. 15-20% - I'll stick with that 😉

• 
  
  
  (Reverb Approach Vi-Libraries)
• 
  
  
  (Reverb-Concept with Synchron-Libraries)

All the best

Beat

[michael diemer]

Thank you Beat. that's very helpful. I'll check out your videos (even if they are on You Tube - I hate being tracked! :).

 michael

[Beat Kaufmann]

@michael diemer said:

...(even if they are on You Tube - I hate being tracked! 😊.

Hello Michael
As for me, I'm a total nobody and "a little weenie" of which there are billions. So even if the consumption of my videos is "tracked", the info is worth next to nothing to Youtube. I would argue that collecting the data in this case is a losing proposition 😉

Beat

[Francesco Pirrone]

@michael diemer said:

In the VI Player, the default is 30. that seems like a lot, especially if you are going to use a reverb bus to tie everything together at the end. So, what are you using? Half that much? Less? just a bit, like 7?

Thank you, md

Hi Michael,

I think I can answer this because VI accounts for 90% of my working templates, I don't use the VI algo reverb at all unless I am just loading VI as a standalone plug-in: not saying that it's bad or shouldn't be used but I have a much better time setting up the whole templates with bus groups for each section and then sending said groups to a main instance of the Vienna Suite convolution reverb.

I like this setup both for writing and for mixing.

As I refine my mix down the line I sometimes find myself adding a separate algo (such as PhoenixVerb, R2 or other stuff) which I use very sparingly on selected instruments in conjunction with the main converb.

Hope that helps!

Francesco

[michael diemer]

@michael diemer said:

In the VI Player, the default is 30. that seems like a lot, especially if you are going to use a reverb bus to tie everything together at the end. So, what are you using? Half that much? Less? just a bit, like 7?

Thank you, md

Hi Michael,

I think I can answer this because VI accounts for 90% of my working templates, I don't use the VI algo reverb at all unless I am just loading VI as a standalone plug-in: not saying that it's bad or shouldn't be used but I have a much better time setting up the whole templates with bus groups for each section and then sending said groups to a main instance of the Vienna Suite convolution reverb.

I like this setup both for writing and for mixing.

As I refine my mix down the line I sometimes find myself adding a separate algo (such as PhoenixVerb, R2 or other stuff) which I use very sparingly on selected instruments in conjunction with the main converb.

Hope that helps!

Francesco

Thank you Francesco, that is certainly a valid way to do it. That's one of the weird things about this - there's usually several ways of doing something, all of which can produce good results.

I appreciate hearing about how others do it. And I may decide your way is better, who knows?

I think the algo reverb on VI is very good. Similarly, the algo on Garritan's Aria player is excellent (Ambience). I've even got it working on Linux, and set it up as a bus for my Dimension Pro instruments (that's a Cakewalk sampler/rompler, not sure which, but it has some useful sounds. but the reverb is terrible, so sending to Ambience gives me the same great reverb that is on the Aria player).

 

I guess I'll continue experimenting,and hopefully get to a satisfactory result at some point.

[Francesco Pirrone]

Hi Michael, you are very welcome.

Yes, absolutely one could go several ways about this and it's all down to the ease of use and getting things to sound how you want them.

To be entirely honest, for some of the most ambitious projects I still bounce all the dry stems to audio prior to mixing, then balance my sounds dry and proceed like I would for a rock mix. In that case it doesn't make much difference what reverb I was using in my writing template as it's gonna go away before exporting the stems. This might sound counterintuitive but in my personal experience it's the fastest/most reliable way to get the sound I want for a track in a matter of hours.

Best regards

Francesco

[michael diemer]

Francesco, I have compared the two different ways of doing reverb discussed here, and it appears that just using one convolution reverb on a bus, and adjusting sends of instruments or groups/synths, does produce better sound. The alternative, using algo reverb and then also using sends to a reverb bus, seems to be more difficult to get good results with, as it involves more variables. So more can go wrong. Also, this approach may produce unwanted interference or muddiness. Not that one cannot get good results, it just seems harder, because it is more complicated. This was for a large orchestral score of mine, and it sounds much clearer doing it with just convo reverb. Thanks for the tip!

[Francesco Pirrone]

Hi Michael,

I am really glad to hear this! Double reverb is certainly possible and has its advantages but as you pointed out there are more variables... also pretty much all reverbs tends to introduce resonances in the lower mids.

I have heard more than one composer saying they use Algo and Converb in parallel/cascade depending on the setup, some people have the two FX channel in their mixing session and balance the sends according to taste, others mix with one main reverb and a second reverb on the whole track at the mastering stage...

I have to say that I was never happy with either of these techniques, especially the second one 'cause I think it introduces a lot more artefacts, but I have heard great mixes that were done this way!

The way I personally love to go about this is to have a colourful Algo reverb available in my mixing session and use it in parallel on few instruments in a way that sounds intentional: with solo instruments for examples sometimes I prefer to reduce the main Converb send slightly to make them more upfront and then add some tail that sounds more like an effect rather than actual ambience. I am sure that there are many other ways to go about this, it's just one of my go tos 'cause I am generally happy with the outcome.

All the best