Buggy behaviour: new Logic with VEPro AU3(Beta) & AU2

[Macker]

In Big Sur, the combination of VEP 7.0.1056 or 7.0.1120 with AU3(Beta) client plugins in Logic Pro 10.7.1 has deteriorated into seriously buggy behaviour, compared to VEP 7.0.1056 with AU3(Beta) client plugins in LPX 10.4.8 in either High Sierra or Big Sur.

For example, now only half of VEP's total of 48 ports per instance appear to respond properly to MIDI Note-Offs; in the other half all notes hang.

According to my tests, the afflicted port numbers are:

5, 6, 7, 8,   13, 14, 15, 16,   21, 22, 23, 24,   29, 30, 31, 32,   37, 38, 39, 40,   45, 46, 47, 48.

I'm also seeing strange behaviour in VSL's AU2 workaround multiport template for VEP/LPX, when using Logic 10.7.1. For example, after responding correctly to a single Note-On and Note-Off in a MIDI region, the template in Logic then sends endlessly repeated Note-Offs for that note, separated by the original note's length it seems. This spurious repetition continues even after I disconnect the Multi Instrument from the Transformer that prepends the port code to each MIDI event! In 20 years of working in Logic's Environment I've never seen brain damage quite like that. Also there are spurious bursts of Note-Offs when Logic's Transport is started or stopped. These strange things don't happen with the VSL workaround AU2 multiport template in LPX 10.4.8.

VSL Support have responded to my report about the AU3 behaviour mentioned above, by saying that it's still Beta; which is fair enough. Many bug reports now being prepared for Apple.

In short, when using Logic 10.7.1, it appears there is now no properly workable multiport template configuration option at all for Logic/VEP.

One thing I can do now - go back to bed! Lol.

[Macker]

Order and sanity restored! My workaround:-

 •  Logic.  I shall be using Logic 10.4.8 in Big Sur (and perhaps later on in Monterey, also sometimes back in High Sierra) until this dreadful mess is cleaned up. Having discovered that for me at least, Dolby Atmos is much ado about nothing, I won't be missing that. There might be a few occasions when I'd prefer to have the new Port/Channel assignment facilities in the 10.7 Track Inspector; but I've been making do well enough with the old facilitities for 20 years - another year or so won't hurt. And I can live without the new Ableton-style live-looping feature; I have Ableton for that. Also, 10.4.8 won't stop me adding Dorico in the near future as a front-end for my Logic/VEP(AU3) multiport template, because I can make it happen in Logic's Environment.

 •  VEPro.  I've uninstalled VEPro 7.0.1120 and reinstalled 7.0.1056, because I want my carefully organised VEPro window with Mixer, Instrument and Automation panes all showing together as saved - 1120 has lost the plot there.

 •  macOS.  It's been my policy for many years to wait until the macOS I wish to upgrade to has reached at least version (N).4.0 or more. That way I don't fall foul of incompatibilities with 3rd party apps, plugins, etc. And despite Apple having recently narrowed the window of opportunity for upgrading, my policy still stands: right now, Monterey is still too young.

 •  All this means I won't be releasing my Situater orchestral intonation subsystem for Logic in the foreseeable future. But that's another story.

[lukehamm]

I recently upgraded to LP 10.7.2, running on Big Sur with the latest v. of VEP7.  I'm having the same awful issues with continuous sustain notes on ports 5-8.  WTF???

Is an acceptable solution to just work on other ports?  I mean, this goes right to the heart of having a functioning DAW.

Please advise

[Paul]

Hello everybody, 

It looks like the latest Logic Update changed the AU3 version a bit. No changes from our side, we have always considered and labeled the AU3 versions a BETA version.

We will look into this after we have finally made the transition to iLok, but for now, I'll have to ask for some patience.

The best idea to have a reliable system right now is to use the AU versions for your projects. 

Best, 
Paul

[lukehamm]

I had MIDI problems when I instantiated AU versions, too.  That's actually why I switched to AU3.

For that, I had set up my individual MIDI channels in the environment the old way - by adding multi-instruments cabled into transformers, cabled into the VEP plugin (the way it's set up on your old VEP/Logic Environment templates that you made available to users.)  But playback was a failure.  Notes would cut off well before their designated lengths.

Please explain the proper way to run a reliable system with AU on Logic 10.7.2 and VEP7 latest version.  Thanks.

[Macker]

Paul, without wanting to add to VSL's currently huge workload, alas I must point out that Lukehamm's posts here confirm my earlier finding that there is currently no properly functional multiport option for using Logic 10.7.2 with VEPro7.

Serious issues arise when using either AU2 or AU3 versions of the latest VEPro7 plugin in the latest Logic Pro.

My original report about this to VSL Support described only the AU3 case. I too have a heavy workload at the moment and so I'm really not keen on taking time out to set up AU2 tests again and prepare a new report for VSL Support about the AU2 multiport workaround.

I'm earnestly hoping that now my original post here has been corroborated by Lukehamm, VSL will accept (or at least regard as very probable) that both AU2 and AU3 versions of VEPro7 are currently unserviceable for multiport operation in the latest Logic Pro.

[Paul]

Hi everybody, 

You are right. And our development team managed to squeeze this in. 

I have sent our beta versions to your registered email addresses, please give those a spin, and we'll handle this via mail conversation. 

Best,
Paul

[Dewdman42]

@Paul said:

Hi everybody, 

You are right. And our development team managed to squeeze this in. 

I have sent our beta versions to your registered email addresses, please give those a spin, and we'll handle this via mail conversation. 

That's exciting!  what did they squeeze in?  

[Paul]

Hi, 

Unfortunately that was a misunderstanding on my side. 

This fix is "only" about the incompatibility of the AU3 plug-in with Logic Pro on M1 machines.
Sorry about the confusion.

The trouble with unreliable MIDI Notes is something we have seen from the very start and one of the main reasons why our AU3 version is still a BETA version... 

Best, 
Paul

[Dewdman42]

I can confirm that VePro.AU3 no longer works.  It was working fine a few versions ago.  Totally broken now, hanging notes all over the place.  Something that has definitely changed somewhere, either in LogicPro or VePro to break it, you cannot even call it Beta status right now..  Its not usable at all until a fix comes from Apple or VSL.

[Macker]

[UPDATE]

For the sake of tying up loose ends, I've just been testing Logic 10.7.2 with and without the VEPro AU2 plugin, while still using VSL's multiport AU2 multiport workaround - also testing the snake oil 3rd party revision of VSL's AU2 workaround.

The good news for VSL is that the VEPro AU2 plugin appears to be innocent! Logic 10.7.2's Environment still produces its spurious garbage even without any VSL plugin!

The problem appears to be that the Transformer object in Logic's Environment is currently very badly broken. I discovered this by sending the output of VSL's AU2 multiport workaround addition in the Environment directly out on an IAC Bus, then examining what appeared on that IAC Bus in Snoize's excellent MIDI Monitor app. Logic's spurious garbage is there in all its glory in MIDI Monitor - with no VSL plugins in the Logic project at all! The snake oil revision of VSL's AU2 workaround, as expected, sends out the same garbage as VSL's version.

There doesn't appear to be any way of testing new Logic's multiport behaviour without the VEPro AU3 plugin, so at present I'm unable to demonstrate the guilt or innocence of the VEPro AU3 plugin in Logic 10.7.2.

Although it's no help to users of large templates in Logic, VEPro AU2 still appears to work normally in new Logic on a 1 Instance with 1 port per VEPro plugin basis - i.e. without the extra stuff in Logic's Environment as required for VSL's AU2 multiport workaround.

[Dewdman42]

I have heard from several sources now that logicpro 10.7.x has severely broken environment objects. I don’t know the details. There have been some bugs in the environment for quite some time and in some cases it has been possible to work around some of them but from what I hear 10.7.x has completely broken some things in the environment. I would not rely on any old environment macros from any source until more is understood about that. I am primarily using DP now so I don’t have a lot of time to look into it; but if people can identify exactly what is broken and in what way, it may be possible to come up with a work around. I have all but given up on apple ever fixing anything in the environment. They keep breaking it worse and worse. It’s part of why I am switching to DP.

However the AU3 version of vepro plugin does not require any environment objects at all, so that would be a separate problem then may apply to using the AU2 multiport macro templates (from any source).

Later on I will try to downgrade logicpro to 10.6 to see if the problem goes away. Even though no transformers or other environment objects are needed to use the AU3 plugin, it’s still possible that apple has broken internally related to ports and midi channels, we can put a midi monitor in front of the vepro plugin to at least see what is happening after the environment.

[Dewdman42]

I rolled LogicPro back to version 10.6.3 and the VePro.AU3 plugin (latest version) is working fine now, no more hanging notes.  MacOS = Monterey for me.

I did some monitoring also from LogicPro 10.7.2, using a Scripter-based midi monitor right in front of the VePro.AU3 plugin in order to see what LogicPro is sending to the plugin....  as Macker noted....All NoteOff's are eaten on certain ports.  Absolutely none of them are showing up in the log....so VePro.AU3 plugin or VePro latest version are not to blame in my view.

This is with a project that does not have any fancy environment cabling or transformers or anything.  The only thing in the environment are the channel strips that are automatically created there by LogicPro itself.  

I do not think this problem is related to environment objects per say, but LogicPro 10.7. did add some new features related to being able to specify the input midi port and channel on each track...which has been a long overdue feature, but I suspect somehow they broke AU3 compatibility in terms of how internal track NoteOff's are routed to different AU3 midi ports...  I will submit a bug report to Apple on this, and everyone else should too in order to get their attention.

For now, I think if you want to use AU3 VePro, don't go past LogicPro 10.6.3.

The other problem related to AU2 multiport macros is a separate issue, having nothing to do with LogicPro's AU3 port handling, but having to do with apparently new bugs in some of the environment objects such as transformers....   They were always a bit problematic.  It might be even worse now.

I don't really want to waste any time trying to debug broken environment features, if Apple has broken the transformer this badly, there are going to be some very unhappy people out there...hopefully they will resolve it eventually..  But part of me wonders if the reports about broken environment are also related in some way to the work Apple did to add midi input port and channel...even without AU3..it may have screwed up generally the routing of midi in some way which is confusing Transformer and other environment objects.  (shrug).  I leave that to someone else to figure out.

I have long since moved on away from those multiport macros to using VePro.AU3 instead and generally avoid the multiport macro's as they have some other issues not-withstanding.  Me personally, I would choose any of the following options before I would choose to use the old multiport macro hacks.

1. Just use single port AU.  It works fine.  Unfortunately it means no more than 16 midi channels per VePro instance, but there are many people out there that even prefer to have only one instrument per VePro instance, so its not the end of the world to do that with LogicPro.
   
   
2. Use VePro.AU3 with LogicPro 10.6, don't upgrade to 10.7.  It is working fine for me except for transport sync.
   
   
3. Switch DAW's.  Most of the other DAW's work totally fine with the VST3 or MAS version of VePro plugin, including up to 768 instruments per VePro instance.
   
   

[Cyril Blanc]

Your problem is remembering me problems I had when I develop my environment.

If you want to send me a song with just a few notes on a few midi port and on a few midi channel  that is causing you problem I can monitor the result and if It is the problems I had I could give you a fix for the environnement

Just cross fingers 

@Macker said:

[UPDATE]

For the sake of tying up loose ends, I've just been testing Logic 10.7.2 with and without the VEPro AU2 plugin, while still using VSL's multiport AU2 multiport workaround - also testing the snake oil 3rd party revision of VSL's AU2 workaround.

The good news for VSL is that the VEPro AU2 plugin appears to be innocent! Logic 10.7.2's Environment still produces its spurious garbage even without any VSL plugin!

The problem appears to be that the Transformer object in Logic's Environment is currently very badly broken. I discovered this by sending the output of VSL's AU2 multiport workaround addition in the Environment directly out on an IAC Bus, then examining what appeared on that IAC Bus in Snoize's excellent MIDI Monitor app. Logic's spurious garbage is there in all its glory in MIDI Monitor - with no VSL plugins in the Logic project at all! The snake oil revision of VSL's AU2 workaround, as expected, sends out the same garbage as VSL's version.

There doesn't appear to be any way of testing new Logic's multiport behaviour without the VEPro AU3 plugin, so at present I'm unable to demonstrate the guilt or innocence of the VEPro AU3 plugin in Logic 10.7.2.

Although it's no help to users of large templates in Logic, VEPro AU2 still appears to work normally in new Logic on a 1 Instance with 1 port per VEPro plugin basis - i.e. without the extra stuff in Logic's Environment as required for VSL's AU2 multiport workaround.

[Macker]

Cyril, generous of you to offer your help. But since I don't know you, nor have any idea of your work and level of expertise and experience with Logic's Environment, I have a few questions for you, hope you don't mind:-

   1.  VEPro doesn't appear in your list of kit. Is that perhaps just an accidental omission in your list?

   2.  If you do work with VEPro, do you currently have a good working multiport connection between VEPro and a large template in Logic 10.7.2, using either the AU3 or AU2 VEPro client plugin?

   3.  Are you fully conversant with the two most widely mentioned VEPro AU2 multiport workarounds available for Logic's Environment:- (a) the original design as provided by VSL, and (b) what I regard as the "snake oil" revision of VSL's original, as noisily promoted and provided by a certain 3rd party?

   4.  Do you perhaps have, or know of, any other VEPro AU2 multiport workarounds that work properly in Logic 10.7.2's Environment?

Thanks for your kind attention.

[Cyril Blanc]

Cyril, generous of you to offer your help. But since I don't know you, nor have any idea of your work and level of expertise and experience with Logic's Environment, I have a few questions for you, hope you don't mind:-

   1.  VEPro doesn't appear in your list of kit. Is that perhaps just an accidental omission in your list?

I work with VEPRO since many many years, look at all the libs I own

   2.  If you do work with VEPro, do you currently have a good working multiport connection between VEPro and a large template in Logic 10.7.2, using either the AU3 or AU2 VEPro client plugin?

Many years ago I develop an environnement that use program changes to do articulation changes 

   3.  Are you fully conversant with the two most widely mentioned VEPro AU2 multiport workarounds available for Logic's Environment:- (a) the original design as provided by VSL, and (b) what I regard as the "snake oil" revision of VSL's original, as noisily promoted and provided by a certain 3rd party?

After many trial on a 100 instrument template using VE PRO or IAC , I found that I have better result using VI, Logic workload is more equilibrated

   4.  Do you perhaps have, or know of, any other VEPro AU2 multiport workarounds that work properly in Logic 10.7.2's Environment?

There are two or three tricks in the environnement, I have correct V1 of the version of the AU2 Environnement given by VSL

[Dewdman42]

@Macker said:

   4.  Do you perhaps have, or know of, any other VEPro AU2 multiport workarounds that work properly in Logic 10.7.2's Environment?

Without seeing your actual project or a more exact and thorough description of the environment problem you're having, I can only point you to this 4 year old thread that explains one particular bug in the Environment that has existed for years and was directly affecting the VSL AU2 multiport macro templates:

https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=137162

since you seem to have experienced a problem since updating to LogicPro 10.7, this may or may not be the problem you are experience, but it's still perhaps a useful example of a problem in the environment, with a possible work around.  In this particular case the problem encountered 4 years ago was related to the fact that some transforms were not handling NoteOff events quite right...and even worse the behavior was inconsistent depending on whether the midi was coming from a region or coming from a midi keyboard.  There are some really old forum posts, 10+ years, on the logicPro forum which also explain this particular problem and some work arounds, so it is not a new problem at all.

This work around eliminated many hanging notes that were common with the original VSL AU2 multiport macro templates.  

I still rather recommend running the AU3 plugin on LogicPro 10.6.3 for now.

another problem with the AU2 multiport macro templates from VSL is related to what happens when you hit STOP on the transport.  LogicPro normally sends out an All Notes Off message, which covers all 16 midi channels, to cut off hanging notes, etc.  Unfortunately LogicPro does not encode those with CC99 messages according to the multiport macro approach, so you can be left with a lot of hanging notes when you hit STOP from that.  My "snake oil" templates from 4 years ago included a Scripter script which attempts to duplicate ALL NOTES OFF to all the various ports, encoded with CC99, etc.  It basically works ok most of the time.  

Another problem generally noted by the AU2 CC99 trick is that it appears to create midi bottleneck congestion in LogicPro more often since so many midi events are funneling through a single process buffer.  Setting the process buffer to LARGE does help.  But another factor to be concerned about with this CC99 approach is that the exact ordering of all the midi events has to be preserved and there are some semi-rare situations where the merging of all the various tracks of midi into a single place...with CC99's inserted in front of Notes, etc..might sometimes result in two CC99's in front of two notes...instead of CC99-note-cc99-note..etc.  which again, can result in incorrect handling.

Perhaps you can use the snake oil to learn something and repair whatever is going on with your environment setup that you are preparing to sell, which undoubtedly must be much more complex.   The last version of the snake oil templates are here: https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=137085

In general I still have to recommend NOT using the AU2 CC99 trick to handle multiport with vePro7.  The AU3 capability works much much much better...with no issues at all related to NoteOff's and no environment trickery. The only catch for now, is that apparently Apple broke AU3 port handling in version 10.7, so stick with LogicPro 10.6 for now until further notice.   

[Macker]

Cyril, many thanks for answering those tedious questions. Very kind of you.

Alas, I do hope you'll understand and forgive me when I say that I won't now be discussing this particular Logic problem any further here - unless of course there is some real news to report. The topic has now become too ... how can I put this ... 'contaminated'. And that's unfair on you also; I'd like to have discussed the problem with you. C'est la vie.

That said, it's easy for anyone to investigate this problem by setting some simple tests to provide the evidence.

I'm sorry I can't provide you with any Logic project files because my normal use of Logic involves a very large and complex subsystem that I've designed and built in Logic's Environment. Indeed I usually quickly set up special and mostly very simple tests in a clean and empty Logic project in order to investigate any problems with Logic itself, which was the case here. I'm afraid I've no tests saved to send you to save you the time. To give you some idea of my Environment subsystem I've attached a (deliberately blurred) shot of one part of an Environment layer; the whole subsystem occupies 16 new layers.

[Cyril Blanc]

@Macker said:

Cyril, many thanks for answering those tedious questions. Very kind of you.

Alas, I do hope you'll understand and forgive me when I say that I won't now be discussing this particular Logic problem any further here - unless of course there is some real news to report. The topic has now become too ... how can I put this ... 'contaminated'. And that's unfair on you also; I'd like to have discussed the problem with you. C'est la vie.

That said, it's easy for anyone to investigate this problem by setting some simple tests to provide the evidence.

I'm sorry I can't provide you with any Logic project files because my normal use of Logic involves a very large and complex subsystem that I've designed and built in Logic's Environment. Indeed I usually quickly set up special and mostly very simple tests in a clean and empty Logic project in order to investigate any problems with Logic itself, which was the case here. I'm afraid I've no tests saved to send you to save you the time. To give you some idea of my Environment subsystem I've attached a (deliberately blurred) shot of one part of an Environment layer; the whole subsystem occupies 16 new layers.

 

If you have touch VSL environnement YOU are ONLY responsible of your problem.

It's your problem to debug what you have add

[Macker]

Quite so, Cyril, and of course acting responsibly applies in both professional and amateur endeavours wherever there are consequences for other people. Furthermore, I'll mention the time-honoured virtues of honesty, integrity, respect and conscience, in this regard.

As a design engineer (retired), what I find alarming is to discover a predatory arriviste who seems to think the "fake it 'til you make it" approach is appropriate in technical endeavours! Anyone who appears to feel entitled not only to speak out grandiosely as if an authority on technical matters in which he is (often very obviously) not an expert, but also to smear the work, opinions and good standing of others who are far ahead of him in expertise, surely is behaving maladaptively, to say the least. One of the difficulties in addressing this arriviste-problem is that it has to be stopped through the interventions of others. Professionals in such matters all indicate that individuals with that type of personality disorder simply do not have the conscience to stop themselves - think of, for example, convicted fraudsters Elizabeth Holmes and Anna Delvey.

What I like and admire about this forum is the very high general standard of responsibility, honesty and integrity of enthusiasts, most of whom don't claim any professional technical standing. It grieves me to see an arriviste preying on these good folks.