Dewdman, I fully agree with what you wrote. In particular the implementation of "extended Midi functionality" like Articulation IDs and their relation to ordinary Midi data is just weird and completely incomprehensible in Logic. Even after nearly a decade it does not work at all to simply record Articulation IDs from a Midi keyboard the way they had intended it using Articulation Sets. There are commercial tools that do nothing else than to fix the mess that Apple left and somehow make this work. It took me years to accidentally figure out how to get this to work, and it was only possible with some odd transformations in the environment, so that all of a sudden Logic would recognize Midi events it would otherwise just filter out.

Well to be fair, I haven't had the kinds of problems you are reporting now.  The articulation set has input switches and if you configure it properly you should be able to record keyswitch changes that are converted during record into midi events with articulationID encoded in them.

My only point above was that articulationID is not sitting within the typical 8 bits mentioned, and the environment transformer is unable to see or set the articulationID.  

Its not possible to use the environment to detect nor encode articulationID in any midi events, directly.  I would be curious to hear more about the "odd transformations" you used, related to articulationID??

You said that Logic was filtering out midi events, but that was most likely because you had some keyswitches defined in the input section of the articulation set.  And by design those will be converted into articulationID (and yes the keyswitch itself will be filtered out in the process).  You can turn off that behavior several different ways.

 The other thing that can eat midi events in LogicPro and sometimes confuse people is if and when you have any kind of control surface enabled....then any midi events that are defined within the Control Surface editor will be eaten by the control surface engine and won't make it into your regions as you record.  I doubt that is what was happening to you before...but just mentioning it as the other way LogicPro might cause midi events to mysteriously be filtered out.

UPDATE: In Logic 10.7.2 with VEPro 7.0.1056, using the same AU3 test rig that I sent a copy of to VSL Support with my first report about LP10.7.1, thus far I've found the following:-

 •   All MIDI Note Offs are still 'postponed' until Logic transport is stopped, when playing back from a MIDI region, in half of the 48 VEPro ports. Same as in 10.7.1. No word from Apple about any fixes to AU3 Port Out assignments, routing or handling etc..

 •   The visible corruption that happened in my large-scale Logic Environment subsystem in 10.7.1 does not appear in 10.7.2. But no word from Apple about any fixes in the Environment.

Apple's Release Notes for LP10.7.2 show about 75 fixes, none of which relate to my particular problems.

Thus my copy of Logic Pro 10.7.2 joins its predecessor in quarantine.

Ahh, fond memories of Apple's shift to Intel, and their introduction of Logic Pro X. Lol.

Anyone fancy starting a class action for fraud in Apple's use of the word "Pro" in Logic Pro? Lolol

1. Logic has never supported multiple MIDI ports.

2. Apple doesn't fully or officially support AU 3.

3. VE Pro AU 3 is beta software.

So no, I will not be joining a class action against Apple.

Good luck with Digital Performer, Macker. I predict you will find that you are out of the frying pan and into the fire, but maybe not.

Au contraire, Ashermusic. As VSL informed us, VEPro7 (AU3 Beta) was the world's first plugin in which Apple's new AU3 support for multiple MIDI-Out ports was implemented; even though it's still Beta and now in a badly broken state, unlike in LPX 10.4.8.

If you have reliable information about the status of AU3 in Apple, please do share it with us, citing your source(s).

My class action remark was just a quip - as signified by a customary quip-signifier:- "Lolol".

I've no idea why you mentioned DP. It's nothing to do with me and I've nothing to do with it; nor have I ever had even the slightest intention of becoming involved with it.

@Macker said:

Au contraire, Ashermusic. As VSL informed us, VEPro7 (AU3 Beta) was the world's first plugin in which Apple's new AU3 support for multiple MIDI-Out ports was implemented; even though it's still Beta and now in a badly broken state, unlike in LPX 10.4.8.

If you have reliable information about the status of AU3 in Apple, please do share it with us, citing your source(s).

My class action remark was just a quip - as signified by a customary quip-signifier:- "Lolol".

I've no idea why you mentioned DP. It's nothing to do with me and I've nothing to do with it; nor have I ever had even the slightest intention of becoming involved with it.

Beta is beta is beta. I have been doing this since 1990 and I am always surprised when anything beta works😊

I have no insider info from Apple about this and frankly couldn't care less about it. My view has always been that if I could not accomplish what I needed too with 16 MIDI channels, I would not see myself as very skillful.

Sorry, it was someone else who mentioned moving to DP. 

I don’t think Apple ever referred to AU3 comparability as being “beta”. In fact I think it would go completely against Apple’s philosophy to have a “beta feature” inside a fully released product. I’m not sure I can recall apple ever releasing ANYTHING in declared beta form actually the more I think about it.

AU3 support in logicpro was actually documented formally as a feature of logicpro like a year before vsl actually attempted to use it in vepro7.  I'm afraid I can't cite a reference for that, but I remember finding it once in the past as a release note in one fo the past versions of LogicPro.

Vsl most definitely did declare vepro7’s AU3 feature to be “beta” according to them; because they didn’t feel, and rightly so; that logicpro really had AU3 support completely working.  Mainly they referred specifically to the fact that logicpro was limited to 127 midi channels and unable to support 768 midi channels on 48 ports that vepro can actually do. But apple has not ever referred to their own AU3 support as “beta”, not that I have ever seen.

For the most part I have found logicpro AU3 mode to work fine with a few little hiccups which can be avoided and worked around if you desire to do so; just like many other so called LogicPro features.  I have found it’s AU3 support to actually be far more reliable and predictable then the environment itself.

Asher you may have read a post from me about switching to DP, I have been in the process of doing that since DP11 came out with articulation maps; and so far I am really really liking DP11 a lot!

It doesn’t mean I have given up entirely on logicpro, they both have certain pros and cons, but each time apple releases new macos and new logic they do seem to bring in many bugs in logicpro, from what I have seen a lot of people are running older versions of logicpro either because the newer versions broke something or because they can’t run the newer version of macos that is required by each new version of logicpro.  its a very slippery situation that is hard to keep up with.

On top of that you have some critical bugs related to PDC, side chaining, even proper PDC and automation, etc.. that have been lurking around unfixed in LogicPro for a very long time.  Also LogicPro has continued to be way behind the curve on certain things such as nested track folders, track selection features and other features that people with large templates seem to run to other products like DP and Cubase for.

As much as I enjoy logicpro’s music writing toolsets, scripter, even the environment; I find this version-chasing stuff with LogicPro all a bit Kaotic and unstable each year. It’s remarkable software for $199 and never charged for an update; but honestly there is also a bit of madness and time-drain happening with LogicPro.  DP, cubase, reaper and other daws are FAR more stable and reliable in comparison; particularly with regards to the fact that you can usually run them on significantly older versions of MacOS, which many people choose to do for reasons of stability..  (Knock on wood).  

Though none of them are without their own problems, no doubt about it. It always comes down to personal preference and as far as I’m concerned every single daw out there has a few cool things I prefer over the others in some way. Well except maybe for reaper, I have no love for that one! ;-)

Nice to hear from you I haven’t seen you around in quite a while

I didn’t say Apple. calls it a beta, VSL does. The plug-in is named AU Beta when you access it in Logic Pro, as you acknowledged.

My memory could be letting me down but I don’t remember Apple ever saying that AU 3 was fully implemented and  supported. 

As for DP, funny, but in recent years a number of people hired me to help them migrate to Logic because they were unhappy with DP, but I don’t do DAW wars. They all have their pros and cons. But most users who have used multiple ones concede that while they may prefer Cubase or DP, Logic is more efficient in running software instruments and fx  but of course VE Pro helps all of them with that. And Cubase, on the Mac at least, is less stable than Logic, according to the Cubase Mac people I talk to. They use Cubase in spite of that, not because of that.

Again, though, I don’t care which DAW people prefer. 

@Ashermusic said:

As for DP, funny, but in recent years a number of people hired me to help them migrate to Logic because they were unhappy with DP, but I don’t do DAW wars. 

people are fickle and switch boats for a variety of reasons and frustrations in both directions.  All the DAW's have pros and cons, LogicPro and DP both are no exception.

I also left DP for LogicPro at some point in the past, but now I'm heading back as MOTU has fixed a lot that I was frustrated about in the past and DP still offers some features no other DAW does, which I really like, such as chunks..  (shrug).

They are all decent choices... 

Jay, no worries about your ID mixup.

I'm stuck with Logic because of the very large subsystem I've designed, developed and been using for many years  in Logic's Environment to give me Orchestral Intonation (OI). I designed version 1 of this subsystem 20 years ago in EMagic's Logic Audio Platinum 3.5, and ran it via IAC with Reason as my sound module containing orchestral instrument samples I bought on CDs. Today I have VEPro doing the job Reason did back then.

If I'm to share my OI subsystem with other Logic users, but Apple's development of Logic thwarts that plan, it may be that my only option then would be to become an indie Apple Developer and write an app to do OI - but that's unlikely to happen. Thus if Logic devlopment continues to move away from conditions that suit my OI subsystem, I'll just continue to use OI for myself in a suitable old version of Logic for as long as possible. No doubt someone else will put OI where it belongs - in the hands of composers.

You know the roller-coaster experience of working with Apple products, so I'll say no more.

All the best Jay.

Interesting, Dewdman , I didn’t remember that!

I think you are correct though in your guess that their are so few developers who have bothered to create AU 3 versions that Logic’s utility with them, or shortcomings  hasn’t gotten any attention. As we’ve discussed, it isn’t something I care a lot about, although it would be nice to use if I it worked reasonably effortlessly, but when I see the lengths you go to to make it work, I am not willing to go there.

Macker , what a nice fellow you are, thanks. 

Logic is my DAW, period. I have thousands of hours working with it and I can make it serve any musical composition or production task I do quickly and well. VE Pro has been a good partner for it  the only way I would even think about using another is if a client said to me, “Jay, I have $50,000 worth of work for you but you need to use (fill in any DAW) to do it.”

@Ashermusic said:

 but when I see the lengths you go to to make it work, I am not willing to go there.

Well you might be confusing it with the old Vepro6 multiport macros.  None of that is necessary with VePro7 and AU3..that's why I endorse it...IF you are wanting multi midi ports to VePro.  I already know you prefer not to work that way in any case.

Using the AU3 version of Vepro7 plugin is pretty painless, it works just like any other multi-timbral instrument in LogicPro...no special environment cabling is needed or really anything..  BUT...  you do have to be careful about a a couple of things and that might be where some people get frightened or in trouble.  its not really about big hoops you have to jump through, but about a couple of traps to make sure to avoid.

1. Don't use more than 127 midi channels per VePro Instance due to limitation which hopefully some day Apple will fix.  (you can do more than 127 if you want to get more complicated jumping through environment hoops)
   
   
2. Don't use AU3 if you have a plugin that requires transport sync inside the plugin hosted in VePro7 of any kind, its currently not working.  In that case just use AU2.  (I am unable to test v10.7 to see if they fixed that but I doubt it and the problem might be VSL's fault we don't really know)
   
   
3. When creating the multi-timbral tracks in LogicPro, the typical approach is to create the first track, set its midi channel to channel 1 instead of ALL, then use CONTROL-RETURN, to add more tracks on next midi channel etc.  That is the normal LogicPro multi-timbral procedure for creating new multi-timbral tracks into a single instrument plugin.
   
   its the same with AU3, but the one little tricky thing is when you get to channel 16, you can't use CTRL-RETURN and have the right thing happen.  LogicPro needs to be improved in that regard also.  Its not that hard, you just select the channel 16 track, change it to port 2, channel 1, then go on hitting CTRL-RETURN some more to create all the port 2 tracks, etc..  Its really not a big deal once you get the hang of it.

I have found AU3 in vepro7 works totally fine and awesome actually...with the exception of being limited to the 127 midi channels and not having transport sync.  Couple other things too, right now if you save patches in LogicPro, it doesn't always save all the AU3 info, but maybe they fixed that in 10.7 when they added the multi input ports.

Anyway, I totally get your POV about using one VePro instance per source track..."like a score", that approach certainly works fine for a lot of people and I think both approaches have their time and place, but just saying, AU3 basically works fine if you avoid the traps I mentioned above.

Tricky environment cabling...well that can lead to all kinds of sorrow...so...no comment there...

Deadman, for me, too many steps for too little reward, but as you say, because I am a classically trained guy, the score page approach is just more relatable for me.

[Moved by the writer due to nugatory-noise nuisance.]

@Macker said:

There's no hint of Apple having any interest in serving the needs of professional composers and other makers of serious orchestral music. Makers of popular music appear to be the only market Logic is aimed at nowadays.

I think you might be exaggerating whatever frustrations you are currently having with LogicPro.  There are in fact quite a few professional orchestrators using LogicPro every day to do their job.  Ever heard of John Powell?  Jay Asher swears by it, both for himself and for his clients.  LogicPro can most certainly be used for serious orchestral music.

Complicated environment setups, well...that may be another story...and I truly feel for you if you have spent 20 years building your ultimate environment-based composing setup which might be breaking under the pressure of software updates to LogicPro.  I would suggest you follow up with Apple rather then continuing to rant and rave about it on the VSL forum.

Many moons ago I introduced in this forum the first step-by-step method for creating custom multiport VEP AU3 templates. Since then I've developed different methods for doing this, and have gained much insight, knowledge and experience in using my AU3 templates. And even with Apple's new Port I/O assignments feature in Logic 10.7 (assuming it will eventually work properly), there will still be a need to get crafty in Logic if one is to exploit this new potential of AU3 to best advantage such that advanced, sophisticated and versatile VEP templates can be built and used for composing.

But alas, this new territory for Logic has yet to be thoroughly prepared by Apple. Indeed I've begun to seriously doubt that Apple wants Logic to go in such a direction. It's significant that in the App Store, Apple's description of Logic starts as follows: "Logic Pro is ... for professional songwriting, beat making, editing and mixing ...".

There's no hint of Apple having any interest in serving the needs of professional composers and other makers of serious orchestral music. Too often, sophisticated users have to coax whatever advanced facilities they can get out of Logic by using considerable technical ingenuity. Makers of popular music appear to be the only market Logic is positively aimed at and catered for by Apple nowadays.

And what else might we divine about Apple's development strategy for Logic, given the one time payment forever policy? Isn't it that Apple are targeting Logic ever more precisely at youngsters, perhaps many if not most of them being potential 'graduates' of GarageBand on iOS devices? Aren't they now pretty much Apple's only significant potential source of revenue from Logic? So it's not exactly surprising that Logic development has been moving pretty obviously in that direction.

It's hard to conclude that any of this bodes well for the notion that Logic is - or can or could be - a competetive, serious, sophisticated and advanced tool for professional composers. It appears Apple have ceded that territory to Steinberg. And owing to this disappointing lack of healthy and fruitful competition, I doubt that the music of our 'Middle Earth' will prosper as well as we would wish; though I don't imagine there's a Sauron scheming to destroy all good music, Lolol.

This thread has served the purpose I intended for it, although it has fallen foul of yet more nugatory and deceitful noise of the same old sort from the village Gollum, Lol. (The pretence defies all sense - how can someone live like that?). Therefore I'm declaring my thread here closed.

Members are kindly asked to start their own new threads if further discussion is sought.