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    @TFIS said:

    This might answer all your questions

    https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

    Hi, TFIS, thanks.

    Very good link, the ultrasonic part is enlightening.

    If I understand well, high resolution is good for mixing, not delivering. Well, can we imagine a more polyphonal instrument than a piano ? Specially a so powerful multi mics one like Syncron pianos
 I very easily get 600 voices with my every day preset with only 3 mics


    Plus, if the VSL team chose the 96kHz resolution to record
 it can’t be just for fun


     

    Regards

    Gabriel Plalame


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    @Crystal said:

    Plus, if the VSL team chose the 96kHz resolution to record...it can be just for fun. Regards Gabriel Plalame
    From this thread, wasn't synchron piano recorded in 96K or higher? Only release version is 44.1K/24bit.

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    @robinlb1900 said:

    From this thread, wasn't synchron piano recorded in 96K or higher? Only release version is 44.1K/24bit.

    Yes, that's what I mean. "Vienna Instruments are recorded in 96 kHz" (Dietz)

    The question is : why ?

    If it's better to record in 96 kHz, why reduce it to 44,1 ?

    Or, to say it differently : if 44,1 is enough, why recording in 96 ?

    Again, SSDs size is not an argument any-more today.

     

    Gabriel Plalame


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    @robinlb1900 said:

    From this thread, wasn't synchron piano recorded in 96K or higher? Only release version is 44.1K/24bit.
    Yes, that's what I mean. "Vienna Instruments are recorded in 96 kHz" (Dietz) The question is : why ? If it's better to record in 96 kHz, why reduce it to 44,1 ? Or, to say it differently : if 44,1 is enough, why recording in 96 ? Again, SSDs size is not an argument any-more today. Gabriel Plalame For comparation, concert grand from production voices provides 44.1/16bit, 44.1/24bit files and will be 96/24bit. They said different rate for different usage and hardware configuration. Lower rate means wider adaptability and compatibility. I can understand why VSL use 44.1/24 for products distribution at present. Actually, I remember synchron piano is recorded in 192/32bit originally. That's why I hope VSL team can provide high rates format for users to choose in the future.

  • I just find this from a french site (https://deveniringeson.com/frequence-echantillonnage/) :

    “(...)les pilotes de votre carte son (surtout les convertisseurs professionnel) seront optimisĂ©s pour une frĂ©quence d’échantillonnage donnĂ©e. En gĂ©nĂ©ral, les pilotes ASIO de vos convertisseurs sont optimisĂ©s pour la frĂ©quence d’échantillonnage maximum qu’elle propose : 96 000 Hz et 192 000 Hz dans la majoritĂ© des cas. Ca peut ĂȘtre surprenant, mais vous aurez moins de latence et plus de soulagement pour le micro-processeur avec une frĂ©quence d’échantillonnage plus grande.”

    Reverso translation :

    “drivers on your sound card (especially professional converters) will be optimized for a given sampling frequency. In general, the ASIO drivers of your converters are optimized for the maximum sampling frequency it offers: 96,000 Hz and 192,000 Hz in the majority of cases. This may be surprising, but you will have less latency and more relief for the microprocessor with a higher sampling rate. Â»

    It could be an element for the discution about latency.

     

    Gabiel Plalame


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    @Crystal said:

    I just find this from a french site (https://deveniringeson.com/frequence-echantillonnage/) :

    “(...)les pilotes de votre carte son (surtout les convertisseurs professionnel) seront optimisĂ©s pour une frĂ©quence d’échantillonnage donnĂ©e. En gĂ©nĂ©ral, les pilotes ASIO de vos convertisseurs sont optimisĂ©s pour la frĂ©quence d’échantillonnage maximum qu’elle propose : 96 000 Hz et 192 000 Hz dans la majoritĂ© des cas. Ca peut ĂȘtre surprenant, mais vous aurez moins de latence et plus de soulagement pour le micro-processeur avec une frĂ©quence d’échantillonnage plus grande.”

    Reverso translation :

    “drivers on your sound card (especially professional converters) will be optimized for a given sampling frequency. In general, the ASIO drivers of your converters are optimized for the maximum sampling frequency it offers: 96,000 Hz and 192,000 Hz in the majority of cases. This may be surprising, but you will have less latency and more relief for the microprocessor with a higher sampling rate. Â»

    It could be an element for the discution about latency.

     

    Gabiel Plalame

    Right, but we arent just talking about playback, we are also talking about adding FX. The reverbs and other FX we add to our sounds becomes more complex (thus, significantly higher processor usage) with higher sample rates. Its easy enough to test, if you have a library that contains multiple sample rate options, both with and without FX.


  • Hi, littelwierdo,

    I agree that a 96kHz project needs more resources in general, of course, but my quote from the french site really surprise me, and is not totally clear about this : does the Asio optimization for the biggest sample rate concern only the A/D conversion (audio capture) or also the D/A restitution (playback) ? If the playback is also affected, then, logically, VSTIs are or could be affected. Plus, is it the case for all sound cards and all manufacturers ? And how to test this before buying ?

    We also have to keep in mind that, as it was said, when the library and project sample-rates don’t match, the real-time re-sampling charge is a problem, specially for a piano library and its outrageous and ferocious polyphonic appetite.

    Considering that some engineers make an audible difference between 44.1 and 96kHz at live recording sessions (file by file and/or for the mix ?),

    Considering that (in my experience) VSTIs synth software really sound better in a 96kHz project than 44,1kHz, and that when we use that magnificent VSL library, many of us also add synth softwares for sound tracks,

    And considering there is no more hardware limitations for 96kHz projects today with a decent computer, in any case not for such a library like Syncron pianos,

    So, to use a 96kHz library in a 96kHz project may be the best sound quality/resources compromise for reasonable soundtrack project.

    Plus, the big advantage of Syncron pianos is to give us a wonderful natural concert venue for zero CPU charge...

    The jitters effects that dmidi mention, and that I didn’t know, has to be taken in consideration too.

    And considering that, as Dietz mention, it is recorded in 96kHz, if the VSL team sells a 96kHz upgrade of the Steinway D, I think I’d buy it. They should study the market with current customers.

    I’m very curious about the sound quality gain (a really more controversy topic, I think, not sure to launch it here !..)

     

    Regards,

    Gabriel Plalame


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    @Crystal said:

    if the VSL team sells a 96kHz upgrade of the Steinway D, I think I’d buy it. They should study the market with current customers.
    Me too. Releasing different rates libraries including 96K to be choosen by users for different usage is smart solution. As I said above, ProductionVoices has already done so, even though their 96K hasnt been sold yet.

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    @Crystal said:

    if the VSL team sells a 96kHz upgrade of the Steinway D, I think I’d buy it. They should study the market with current customers.
    Me too. Releasing different rates libraries including 96K to be choosen by users for different usage is smart solution. As I said above, ProductionVoices has already done so, even though their 96K hasnt been sold yet.

     

    Maybe before that, the other keys should be sampled, which haven't been.


  • I can't understand how people can bear 96kHz nowadays. I can't even listen to things under 192kHz. I can feel all that aliasing! So, VSL, please, before going for low numbers, plan to offer us 192kHz samples, multi-channel and sampled in surround!

    Paolo


  • (When I said it was controversy
)

    Paolo,

    They already record in 96kHz.

    Why ?

     

    Gabriel Plalame


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    @Crystal said:

    (When I said it was controversy
)Paolo,They already record in 96kHz.Why ? Gabriel Plalame
    In this thread, Dietz said "[b]Vienna Instruments[/b] are recorded in 96 kHz with 24 bit resolution", that doesn't mean Synchron Pianos are also recorded in 96kHz. I remember they are recorded in 192/32 format. Of course, reduced to 96/24 is enough for me 😊

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    @TFIS said:

    Maybe before that, the other keys should be sampled, which haven't been.
    Maybe for ProductionVoices, but for VSL it's already recorded originally I guess.

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    @TFIS said:

    Maybe before that, the other keys should be sampled, which haven't been.
    Maybe for ProductionVoices, but for VSL it's already recorded originally I guess.

    Lower and higher keys have been sampled in whole tone steps, not chromatically.


  • My concern is, resources are still an issue for me. I write and compose using a single PC, an Intel core i7 8700k with 64 GB of ram. A full orchestral piece consisting of about 60 tracks in which I use every instrument that is loaded, will eat every bit of that ram up in a heartbeat. I cannot upgrade my RAM any more than that, 64 is my motherboard limit, so my next option would be to start freezing tracks or converting tracks to audio, which would severely hamper my creativity (waiting minutes to unfreeze and reload a track is a creativity killer).

    Factor in MIR Pro and perhaps a light compression / delay VST (I use the FX builtin to Ensemble 7 as the FX are quite good), and the video editing software I use (Magix Vegas Studio) which I like to have open with the music writing process so that I can write music and time / render it correctly in time with the video and things start to go quite nuts on resource usage. While I know there are options for reducing resource usage, and I certainly could do what I do without having everything loaded all at once, It would slow down the final bit of the process for me, when I am fine tuning the work I do.

    It is also worth noting, probably 70% of what I work with is already what I would consider a light library (Special Edition libraries - 1,1+,2,2+,3,4,5,6,&7). I shudder to think how bad it would be if I were using the complete libraries. I mean, in all honestly, with exception to the solo instruments, luckily, I dont see a big enough value in the complete libraries (for me) to use them or I would have to consider replacing my motherboard and doubling my ram, a prospect that would run me about $1000.

    As much as I absolutely love Orchestral Tools libraries and some of Spitfire libraries, the main reason I dont use them is the size. They are unbelievably ginormous and unnecessarily so.

    I also, as a side note, do not want to introduce complexity in my workflow. Running Ensemble over a network, while neat, adds unecessary complexity that I just dont need or want. As the famous line goes, the more they overtake the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain.

    Synchron pianos is already one of the biggest piano libraries out there, surpassed only by another piano library that touts a terabyte and a half as I recall. I am glad that VSL decided to release the special edition synchron variant, as it serves well enough to my ear to use for orchestral work, and hell, I think the special edition variant is STILL larger in size than most piano libraries on the market.

    Finally, I dont think it is beneficial to anyone to suggest that performance is better with higher sample rates. What we are doing is vastly different than what many articles are writing about, which is simple playback. We are adding FX and we are not merely simply playing wav audio. The audio format is in a proprietary format, not native to what soundcards are acustomed to playing, which adds overhead, increasing processor usage.

    All this having been said, I am not against having an optional download for those that want higher quality, although, if this option is provided, I dont understand why they should need to sell it as a "give us more money" choice, because they already have the samples in this format. It would not or should not require much more effort on their end to make this option available, and it should be a free choice, as it is with every other library on the market that offers quality choices (Sonokinetic for example, it is a free optional download).

    Personally, no offense meant, but I find it highly suspicious that anyone can tell the difference between 48 and 96 sample rates. Now, between 16 and 24 bit, in very specific circumstances, that I can tell the difference, but the circumstances where I can tell the difference are very specific, having to do with dithering with certain frequencies and lower volume levels. However, who am I to get into a debate over whether someone can hear a difference?

    Anyway, I have Physics homework to get back to, make the option available free of charge, choice is never a bad thing, I merely wanted to address the notion that performance was better with higher sample rates.


  • As I said, providing libraries with different rates for different purposes choosing from users is the most sensible solution. This is not a purely technical issue, but one that involves market factors. There are always different needs in the market, so three version in differentiated pricing might be more popular. 1, light version: 44.1kHz/16bit, intended for performance oriented or resource-constrained users. 2, std version: 44.1kHz/24bit at present, for normal usage and majority user. 3, premium version: 96kHz/24bit, for high end users of piano solo playback. Of course, maybe ultra version 192/32 for master level...haha Therefore, we can both be happy.

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    @Another User said:


    Personally, no offense meant, but I find it highly suspicious that anyone can tell the difference between 48 and 96 sample rates.

    About mic sources I can’t tell. I can just refer to engineers testimonials over the Web here and there.
    About synth softwares, to me it is a certitude : using Native Instruments tools like Absynt (my favorite) and others, 96kHz projects really make an audible difference. It’s very hard to tell, but it’s quite the same feeling when you switch from bad monitors to good monitors : a clearer sound, more ‘define’. I’m not sure this is only a pure ‘high frequencies’ point. The ‘texture’ of the sound seems different. To use a photographic metaphor, it’s more about ‘definition’ than a pure frequency dimension, even if it sounds more ‘shiny’ in general. (But I have to confess that it was 44,1kHz vs 96kHz and not 48kHz vs 96kHz, I have to reconsider that, and make more tests...)

    However, I’d rely like to share my experience in that field (idealy, I’d like to open a web page with random blind tests, but can’t do this now, I have to record and publish my work with the Steinway D first). I did my first test ten years ago when I used a Pulsar II sound card (Creamware at time, Sonic Core today). It was (and still is I guess) a very good DSPs sound card with lot of synth softwares resources embedded. With it, you just have to click one button to switch the sample-rate. My God
 exploring all synth presets in 44,1, when I switched by curiosity to 96kHz, I was really stunishing
 It sounded totally different
 so much different that I felt the necessity to listen again all presets... I don’t know how much the DSP technology is involved here (or not). I don’t use it any more, I use an Octacapture today, but still fell a real difference with VSTIs synth softwares (Samplitude / Native Instruments / Octacapture and THX Makie monitors, not ‘ultimate’, but good...).

    And my concern is also FX. If a synth source makes such a difference, what about FX ? (I didn’t test this to be honest, not enough time
)

     

    Regards

    Gabriel Plalame


  • It is hard to disagree that 96/24 would be a great improvement over 44.1/24 for anybody who does any post processing. ANd probably for real time play as well (less latency).
    And considering that downsampling to 44.1/24 is the last step in VSL workflow, release of 96/24 should be a relatively easy process.
    Keep fingers crossed.


  • Welcome VladKo,

    as far as latency is concerned, nothing hinders you from using VSL's instruments at 88 or 96 kHz, as the upsampling for those SRs is done in realtime anyway.

    HTH,


    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • @pablo This a statement that has been long disproven.   Yes, 96k is better, higher resolution is better- even if it is upsampled- unless you have issues with certain types of distortion to begin with lurking in your signal when you do it.  

    No offense, but it is often the case that the people who push the narrative that there is no differences between 48k or 96k either a) don't have the system to tun it, or b) cant hear it
    I do however wish Vienna would get on board with native 96k samples


  • PaulP Paul moved this topic from Synchron Series on