@littlewierdo said:

And again, I dont understand why you guys are all upset. Do you know how many times over I have paid for Cubase? Its $150 yearly ($100 for the end of year upgrade and $50 for the mid-year upgrade). Having had a license for Cubase for several years now, I have paid once for Cubase Pro initially ($600), and in the four years Ive had the license, another $600.

Just for comparison, VEP6, in case anyone forgot, was released in late 2016.

Maybe you dont need epic orchestra, and I do completely agree, it is disengenuous for VSL to say you are getting it for free. You arent, you are paying a 30 Euro premium for epic orchestra. However, let me get this straight, you are complaining because the purchase price is 30 Euros higher for the first license? Put this in perspective, how many thousands of dollars have you spent on hardware and software? How much of it turned out to be for something you dont ever use? 30 Euros is the least of my concerns honestly.

As was previously stated, this is VSL pushing people to use Synchron. Personally, I hate the layout. I despise it. I think it was a piss poor decision to split their userbase into two groups. Their sounds should be compatible with both engines, allowing users of a more modern UI to use Synchron, while allowing those that like the look and feel of VI to use Instruments Pro. I have plenty of critiques for VSL, Im no fanboy by any stretch.

However, I see no issue with what VSL is doing here, other than forcing users who wish to upgrade to VEP7 to pay extra for EO. However, its only $30 Euros, and I am a bit biased, I love the epic orchestra 2.0 library, even if it is in the terrible Synchron player ui. Considering I have very few libraries that are any good for sketching (my libraries are all hundreds of gigabytes, thus, by the time they load, Ive taken the dog for a walk, taken a shower, and brushed my teeth), EO in combination with Smart Orchestra are alot of fun.

Oh, and as to my comments about free addons, what the heck is wrong with free addons? You dont have to use them.

1. Cubase doesn´t have a mid year $50 upgrade, is always in December and it is $100 for .0 versions and $50 for .5 versions. So, it is $150 in two years. VSL is asking us a lot more to be able to continue using the three licenses.

2. You are not getting it straight I´m afraid, we are not complaining about paying 30 euros more for EO, we are taking issue with the lack of communication about the licenses downgrade. Now we are facing rebuying the software again every couple of years to stay current because of the new licenses policy. That is not an upgrade policy, if we have to spend more than we payed the first time.

I appreciate that you feel the need to stand up for VSL business decisions but I would like an official response about the licenses downgrade, and why the upgrade now is costing more than what I payed the first time

I'm wondering something: where does the 30 euro more for EO come in?

It is all just a big old marketing fumble, period!

If VSL would have announced all the VEP 7 feature candy that was coming, and it was seen as good stuff, noone would be whining about upgrade costs. We'd be whining about how long we have to wait to get our hands on it.

The pitch was misguided to think that most of us would care about EPIC. Like many users of VEP,  I got thousands $$$ tied up in VSL sample libraries. The cost of VEP, or its upgrades, is really trivial by comparison.

I dont care about EPIC update. Sure, it is nice, but I am more interested...like many...as to what VEP 7 brings to the party.

You guys can put this all to bed by just announcing the new features that will be in VEP 7. If you dont know yet, then why even announce it at all? It's like telling the kids we will go to Dairy Queen for a Blizzard...someday. They got some awesome new flavors. Your little kids are like "I wanna go now"..."when can we go"..."what flavors"?

If you dont know the prodcut features of VEP7 at this very moment, it likely means you are probably 12+ months out from a release of VEP 7.  If so, it makes no sense to announce anything. 

Hence...the marketing fumble.

"If VSL would have announced all the VEP 7 feature candy that was coming, and it was seen as good stuff, noone would be whining about upgrade costs."

Remember, whining is your choice.

I brough mine last BKFR, and for shure with no grace period, pay again 120€ for the 2 licence i need is not cheap for a simple hobbist.

But the fact that all the intro price is based on "buy it 'll have great feature" and will expire BEFORE features annoncement is little too much for the average hobbist ... it's a software not a lottery ticket ... 😃

BTW i brought it, internal fx are always a great improvement, and i'm shure it will be a great version despite a bad annoncement !

@Bill said:

Remember, whining is your choice.

Agreed...but I am not whining...I am pointing out the whole basis for the whining many others are doing.

I will upgrade, I always do. I dont worry about the cost. If it has the features I want, and isnt a buggy mess, I will be all over it...no matter what the price point. However...my setup works just fine as it is, so I probably wont be an early adopter. 

Vienna isnt removing a license. You KEEP your 3 VEP6 licenses. By doing the upgrade, each license upgrade ADDS a VEP7 license to your existing VEP6 licenses.

I have 3 VEP6 licenses. I bought 1 upgrade. I now have 3 VEP6 licenses and 1 VEP7 license.

[URL=https://s1177.photobucket.com/user/littlewierdo1979/media/VSL6%20%207.png.html][IMG]https://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x353/littlewierdo1979/VSL6%20%207.png[/IMG][/URL]

As to Cubase, yes, I just looked, I guess they upgrade only yearly, but it certainly feels like twice a year, so thanks for the correction.. It is still an expensive upgrade, Ive had it for 4 years and paid $300 to upgrade it.

@littlewierdo said:

Vienna isnt removing a license. You KEEP your 3 VEP6 licenses. By doing the upgrade, each license upgrade ADDS a VEP7 license to your existing VEP6 licenses.

I have 3 VEP6 licenses. I bought 1 upgrade. I now have 3 VEP6 licenses and 1 VEP7 license.

[URL=https://s1177.photobucket.com/user/littlewierdo1979/media/VSL6%20%207.png.html][IMG]https://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x353/littlewierdo1979/VSL6%20%207.png[/IMG][/URL]

As to Cubase, yes, I just looked, I guess they upgrade only yearly, but it certainly feels like twice a year, so thanks for the correction.. It is still an expensive upgrade, Ive had it for 4 years and paid $300 to upgrade it.

I think VEP6 and VEP7 can´t coexist (correct me if I am wrong) and cannot communicate (Paul said so).

So, again, if you need to work with three computers and want to upgrade to VEP7 to stay current, you are missing two licenses, and you have to buy them

Adding just one VEP7 license to your three VEP6 licenses doesn´t work for people with multisystems, I don´t think is very hard to understand.

As for Cubase, you are correct saying that you paid $300 over 4 years, and with VEP new price policy, people who bought VEP for networking several computers (it´s primary objetive when it was released) would pay almost double than that in four years (about 250 euros per two years)

I understand your wish to stand up for Paul and company, and I have nothing but respect for them. I don´t mind that VSL would like to hike prices, or change policy, also I realize that the company doesn´t owe me an explanation for its business decisions, but I would appreciate one or two lines about it, instead of talking about the Taiko library.

I am not defending VSL, nor am I defending Paul. I am simply explaining, that this is not the world is ending scenario it is being painted out to be.

Is the upgrade expensive? If you are upgrading 3 licenses, sure. To be specific, not referring to special sales, I am going to use the pricing when it goes to a normal price, it will be 95 for the first, and 65 for the 2 subsequent upgrades. That is 225 Euros total. Ensemble 6 is currently 285 euros for the same three licenses. The upgrade is 79% of the cost of 6, if you are upgrading 3 licenses at full price.

However, I am guessing most people dont need to upgrade three licenses.

So yes, the upgrade is expensive, but it isnt the same price as Ensemble 6, and most users are probably not upgrading 3 licenses.

In addition, Vienna is pretty generous about putting their software on sale. My guess is, Ensemble will be made available both on launch and several times throughout the year, so you wont have to wait long to purchase VEP7 at a discount.

If anyone should be upset, it should be me. I literally just purchased VEP6 in December 2018. I get no special discount. Vienna isnt providing any sort of grace period.

The reality however is, Vienna has found themself in an impossible situation because they priced Ensemble 6 in a terrible way by not allowing people to purchase 1 license at a time. They are attempting to fix this. Is the cost too high for new users for a single license for VEP7? In my opinion, yes. Is the non-sale price for the VEP7 upgrade too expensive? It depends on how many licenses you need. For those that only need 1 or 2, its a good deal in my opinion. If you need more, its not so much. However, this is because VEP6 is sold as 3 licenses, so for people like myself, we see the price of VEP6 as $285, because that is how much VEP6 costs, whether you need 1 license, 2 licenses, or 3 licenses. Either way, its $285.

The bottom line is simple. Wait until they announce more details before you buy. And guess what, Id bet my VEP7 license on Vienna putting VEP7 on sale when it launches, and several more times during the course of the year. You wont be paying the standard pricing, unless you arent paying attention to when this thing releases and you cant wait to buy it if you miss the launch.

@Another User said:

The bottom line is simple. Wait until they announce more details before you buy. 

At a bare minimum all upgraders should at least wait to see.  All we konw as of now is that it will have FX added.  Me personally, even to justify $85 for one license I would need to see substantial improvements to the product.  But the simple truth is that I am being asked to pay money for something, that as far as we know has FX added, and we are expected to lose multi-machine networking unless we want to pay kind of a tidy sum...for as yet unannounced features.  As I have said, if VSL comes out with some breakthrough new thing that is so incredibly amazing that I can't imagine not paying another $250 for it... ($500 total in one year's time)...they will probably get my money...but I really am not expecting that.  I am expecting a few little things updated + FX...and unelss I want to pay through the nose.....LOSS of functionality in terms of networking a few extra machines in a pinch.  I will gladly stick with VEP6 and wait for VEP8 someday to reconsider.

@Another User said:

The bottom line is simple. Wait until they announce more details before you buy. 

At a bare minimum all upgraders should at least wait to see.  All we konw as of now is that it will have FX added.  Me personally, even to justify $85 for one license I would need to see substantial improvements to the product.  But the simple truth is that I am being asked to pay money for something, that as far as we know has FX added, and we are expected to lose multi-machine networking unless we want to pay kind of a tidy sum...for as yet unannounced features.  As I have said, if VSL comes out with some breakthrough new thing that is so incredibly amazing that I can't imagine not paying another $250 for it... ($500 total in one year's time)...they will probably get my money...but I really am not expecting that.  I am expecting a few little things updated + FX...and unelss I want to pay through the nose.....LOSS of functionality in terms of networking a few extra machines in a pinch.  I will gladly stick with VEP6 and wait for VEP8 someday to reconsider.

Very well put, @vsl would you care to adress these points?

maybe the plugins that communicate with the servers (which are free) will get different IDs so that you can use these with your VEP6, while "new" client plugs will connect to VEP7 upwards.

In this case you wont have to alter any of your projects, wont lose any license and get additional license(s) for VEP7...

I believe Paul has stated that VEP6 and VEP7 will not be compatible and unable to communicate with each other.  I would hazzard a guess, that projects with VEP6 plugin will open in your DAW and load the VEP7 plugin..its probably named the same...so you can't really have both installed at the same time.  use one or the other, not both together.

I suppose you might be able to load VEP6 plugin inside a subhost such as patchworks or plogue bidule, while using VEP7 plugin directly in the DAW..and maybe get around that limitation that way?  Don't know, no garantees that the two won't stomp all over each other in networking or other stuff..  But anyway, if the above worked, then perhaps you could run one VEP7 server and three more VEP6 servers...  hypothetically...

VEPro 6 and 7 will not communicate together (confimed by Paul). But I think it will still be possible run them side by side.

@Another User said:

The bottom line is simple. Wait until they announce more details before you buy. 

At a bare minimum all upgraders should at least wait to see.  All we konw as of now is that it will have FX added.  Me personally, even to justify $85 for one license I would need to see substantial improvements to the product.  But the simple truth is that I am being asked to pay money for something, that as far as we know has FX added, and we are expected to lose multi-machine networking unless we want to pay kind of a tidy sum...for as yet unannounced features.  As I have said, if VSL comes out with some breakthrough new thing that is so incredibly amazing that I can't imagine not paying another $250 for it... ($500 total in one year's time)...they will probably get my money...but I really am not expecting that.  I am expecting a few little things updated + FX...and unelss I want to pay through the nose.....LOSS of functionality in terms of networking a few extra machines in a pinch.  I will gladly stick with VEP6 and wait for VEP8 someday to reconsider.

1. You use the word "downgrade", meaning, you will be getting less than what you have now. That is simply not true. Nothing is going to change. You keep your VEP6 licenses, even if you do upgrade. You arent being downgraded, nor are you being forced to upgrade.

2. Vienna is not reducing the amount of machines you can use. You can continue to use VEP6 until you are ready to upgrade to VEP7.

3. Yes, they are charging money to upgrade, just as most software suites do for major software versions. Is it a little expensive? Yes. However, of course, you fail to even acknowledge the point I made several times, VEP7 will go on sale several times during the year, including when it launches. You wont be paying the retail price.

4. I am a little miffed, but not enough to come on here and scream about it. It is an expense, one that Id rather not pay, but one that I am not too concerned about. I have bigger issues with Vienna than a charged software update (I have Smart Speheres that I currently cant use because it has a feedback issue and I dont have the free time to sit down and try to track down which sounds / effects cause the feedback issue, or, I could discuss how VI, MIR, and Vsuite are all seemingly going to become obsoleted because Synchron seems to be the only thing Vienna wants to support, meanwhile, several of their libraries are woefully dated, solo string instruments lack vibrato controls, the choirs are lacking severely in articulations, etc.)

5. No one knows about whether VEP6 and VEP7 will communicate with each other. That is an assumption being made. However, nothing is stopping you from CONTINUING TO USE VEP6 ACROSS THE BOARD! Nothing is changing. Vienna isnt saying, VEP6 will stop working when VEP7 comes out. The release of VEP7 means that VEP6 will eventually no longer be supported and end of lifed, but not before youve had ample opportunity to pay for the update, and before VEP6 is obsoleted, VEP7 will have gone on sale numerous times, giving you ample opportunity to upgrade.

The bottom line is, its a paid software upgrade. One I think we can all agree, is a bit pricey, but not out of this world pricey, unless you are upgrading 10 licenses, then I will admit, this is pretty pricey.

@Another User said:

The bottom line is simple. Wait until they announce more details before you buy.

I too am very annoyed with the license downgrade or double the price. And wont upgrade until I see their cards on the table. It better be good!, VST3 and AU3 - hello! Better audio FX insert workflow, network, cpu efficiency.

Describing it as if "you lose nothing just keep using v6 in addition" is just dressing it up BS and insulting our intelligence. Yes I could still use win98se with the software from back then but I actually dont have a choice in terms of running a business.

We know for SURE you cant connect v6 slave to a v7 host or vice versa. It is confirmed! Period!

They are stopping development of 6 - that will eventually become bugy and left in the dirt as OSs and plugins move on, needing the latest.

This is a server/farm based product! I will eat my hat if there are more users who use just one pc or even 2 and will NEVER need that extra license. The 3 licence core product of previous is a good and natural feature for such a product.

Mediocre FX (that wont work on anything but inside VSL products) and a generic sample library are a bit of an insult really.

Actually there IS a competing product. Reaper with Reamote or Reastream. This upgrade and the way they are trying to BS us and avoid the real truth in the marketing along with a big step up in expense and future new high level of pricing that will continue to hike is making me look closer at Reamote. VSL now remind me of AVID! Trying hard to hold on to their overly expanded infrastructure by scewing their users! I left AVID for Reaper.

I vote for granfathering the 3 licenses accross and wont upgrade until THEY treat us with respect.

Ensemble is more than just networking, it is also a nice host for gathering all those pesky VST windows like Kontakt, Play, Omnisphere, etc into one place. I will also add, its a nice simple mixer with very convenient routing options. The Pro version also has convenient ways of keeping channels organized and is lighter on the CPU than its free counterpart. Whether the majority of people purchased Ensemble Pro only for its network hosting of VST plugins, I cant say, but it wasnt one of the reasons I purchased a license for it.

By the way, I never said keep using your VEP6 license indefinitely. I said, keep using your VEP6 license and upgrade when VEP7 goes on sale. Everyone is using the "when it isnt on sale" prices to suggest that this way to expensive, I am saying, if you are buying anything from Vienna when it isnt on sale, you are throwing money away, because everything Vienna sells is discounted several times during the course of the year. Buy the upgrade when it goes on sale.

By the way, Reaper has some of this functionality, however, there is talk of removing the Reamote code from Reaper.

Oh, and with regards to 'treating you with respect', that is a laugh. Nothing they have done here has been disrespectful. In fact, quite the contrary, they have announced a new version is coming and the pricing. They arent ready to announce features. They never made fun of your mother. They didnt insult you. They didnt accuse your father of smelling of elder berries. They simply announced a new version and pricing.

On the other hand, reading the comments in the thread here, the community has done the opposite. Paul has been blamed for this, and Im pretty sure the poor guy is merely the messenger. Someone in a smoke filled dusty room said, we have a new thing, go tell the masses. I dont think anyone at Vienna expected this kind of blowback. They have a new thing, they are excited about it. They underestimated the fact that people arent happy to pay money sight unseen. The guys in the smoke filled room clearly think this thing is awesome and worth the price of admission, however, they arent ready to spill the beans. Its really hard to get someone hyped about something if you cant tell them what to be hyped for. I only hope this is a lesson Vienna has learned, because especially when it comes to paid software upgrades that are pretty much required, no one is thrilled about them. Add the additional question of, is this a paid upgrade for the sake of Vienna trying to make money without providing anything in return and it tends to make people feel nickled and dimed.

I am not a fanboy for Vienna. The upgrade is a bit pricey, but it will go on sale. If you pay sticker price, you are a fool and no, your shit aint going to break before youve had ample time to purchase the upgrade when its already been on sale numerous times.

A solution for the cost of the three licenses could be this:

- Sell the basic one-machine license as is.
- Sell the individual additional licenses as they are.
- Sell a package of three licenses at a discounted price.

Paolo

@littlewierdo said:

1. You use the word "downgrade", meaning, you will be getting less than what you have now. That is simply not true. Nothing is going to change. You keep your VEP6 licenses, even if you do upgrade. You arent being downgraded, nor are you being forced to upgrade.

Why playing with words?
- If you upgrade to 7, there's a 'downgrade' regarding the number of licenses.
- 6 & 7 can't coexist. There's no version number on software and if I remember well, I installed 5 while having 6 once and I guess it uninstalled 6 (to be verified).
- If you upgrade to 7 and wish to keep your number of licenses as you say, you have to avoid installing 7 so as to use 6. Why upgrading to 7 then?

BTW we should remember the Synchron Player story. How long did it take to get the player after Synchron Strings release? Months. Speaking for myself, hopefully I didn't use the SYstrings in my work before getting the player. I know people who did and are stuck to keep both banks now (VI & SYplayer) on their harddrives. Who was aware of this (bank uncompatibility from VI to SY)? Nobody, thanks to VSL.

The launching at that time was about a 'revolutionnary' orchestral bank first and the player had been announced later. It's different yet with VEpro7, everyone can have a look to he main page:
> Product Overview > Software > NEW: Vienna Ensemble Pro 7
Consider that the staff can't even give a single info about the announced product yet which looks weird at least...

Speaking for myself and starting from my experience with SYstrings & SYplayer, the fake promises and the lack of clear and fair preliminary infos and details, I know exactly what I'll do for now: nothing.