Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
Forum Statistics

196,676 users have contributed to 43,023 threads and 258,419 posts.

In the past 24 hours, we have 2 new thread(s), 3 new post(s) and 93 new user(s).

  1. Home
  2. Orchestration & Composition
  3. Your Music
  4. The Fall of Man

  • The Fall of Man

    A
    A
    last edited
    last edited

    Hi all,

    I'd like to share with you my latest composition. Description from my website: This grand orchestral work features a strongly defined theme depicting humanity's struggle amidst the turmoil of our times. The harp and marimba are prominently featured against the lush backdrop of rich strings, brass fanfares, and woodwind patter.

    This one was quite difficult to render a convicing virtual performance and I for one, am glad it's done 😊

    I look forward to hearing from you if you choose to listen!

    The Fall of Man by David Carovillano - PLAY on SOUNDCLOUD

    Cheers!

    Dave
  • C
    C

    Hi David,

    Relatively simple piece, if compared to your previous works that I listened to. Specifically, foreground elements are simple, but on 2nd listening I've paid attention to the background as well, and for me that was where all the interesting ideas are. I liked how rhtyhm is created by different orchestral combinations, sometimes affirmative and sometimes quite subtle. I also liked how you used marimba's lower register to blend in. 

    The harp didn't sound that prominent to me as you write in your description. It does fit nicely, but prominent? Hmm, maybe I missed something. 

    The performance was convincing to my ear (great job!), maybe the stage is just a bit too dry.

    Good work as always!

    Cheers,

    Crusoe.
  • A
    A

    Hi Crusoe,

    Many thanks for your comments.  I am glad you enjoyed the piece!  You're right in that I probably mis-characterized the harp's "prominence".  When I first started the piece, I paired the harp and marimba together essentially to serve as a counter-ensemble to everything else.  As the piece developed, I kept the two instruments united, often playing in unison, but the unnatural level (they were essentially as loud as the orchestra) had me re-think their role, and I had them blend in more naturally.  I guess I was still thinking of how I initially conceived of the harp/marimba, even if their passages aren't overtly heard.

    Cheers!

    Dave
  • C
    C
    last edited
    last edited

    @Another User said:

    ... but the unnatural level (they were essentially as loud as the orchestra) had me re-think their role, and I had them blend in more naturally

    Oh, now I see, totally makes sense. In fact, I tried something of this sort, too (with harp, didn't work), and I even saw in a review of some harp VST something like "very nice sound, cuts through the whole orchestra playing loud". Hehe :)  
  • W
    W

    Dave that is sounding really good! I also wanted more reverb but probably overdo that myself...
  • A
    A

    Thanks, Bill.  It's funny: Becky and I have gone back and forth on amount of reverb on virtually every piece, always trying to find that balance between the sweet resonance and clarity.  Sometimes the best way to decide if you like it where it stands is to walk away for a long while and re-visit the piece later, but who's got time to do that? :)

    Cheers!

    Dave
  • C
    C
    last edited
    last edited

    @Another User said:

    Becky and I have gone back and forth on amount of reverb on virtually every piece, always trying to find that balance between the sweet resonance and clarity.

    Hi David,

    I find it very productive to use a reference track for this kind of decisions. Excludes a lot of subjectivity. Well, if that's what you want. Sometimes subjectivity is desirable.

    Cheers,

    Crusoe.
  • A
    A

    Hi Crusoe,

    We used reference tracks when we first started working with virtual instruments.  It was definitely a helpful learning tool, and taught us how to calibrate our hearing.  That said, the idea of "reverse engineering" existing tracks in an attempt to make my music have a similar sound profile (whether it be eq'ing, reverb, etc.) doesn't appeal to me today, because I enjoy the collaborative process that my wife, Becky, and me share together, as we discuss what we're hearing and make arguments for and against certain decisions.  At the end of the day, what appeals to our ears today, may sound totally different next month, year, or decade.  

    Here's a funny (somewhat related) tidbit:  When we recorded our first self-titled album, Acclarion, it was a studio production with a "team", that cost way too many thousands of dollars to produce.  On our second album, "what if...?", we did a home-made recording, and mixed the album ourselves, before bringing it to a mastering studio in Toronto.  The mastering engineer auditioned the second album, "ab-ing it" alongside our first, and a recording of a famous mixed quartet, whose EQ we wanted to emulate.  After listening to everything, he commented that the only thing better on our first album and the mixed quartet's album (which cost $50,000 to produce) was the quality of the reverb.  We instantly regretted spending so much on our first album, and got a chuckle out of how two people that knew nothing about recording, could create a home recording for the cost of a few (cheap) mics, and no room treatment at all that rivalled our expensive studio album with a seasoned team of engineers.  

    The moral of the story: trust your ears to shape the sound you want; have patience, experiment, but also don't try to avoid common sense (as in re-inventing mic placements, or complicating a reverb/effects send chain with too many things).  As musicians, we're totally aware that we lack the expertise of engineers, but I also think, sometimes, especially with classical musicians, they're more aware/sensitive to what specifically their sound should be and can achieve it easier on their own than with engineers tweaking a million things (especially if those engineers aren't familiar with the style/instrumentation, etc)

    Dave
  • W
    W

    I totally agree with that, and have resisted consciously trying to make my recordings sound like this or that specific live recording. Perhaps I shoud, but I want to just create the sound from the original pristine samples and iomagining what it should sound like, and not try to force it to obey an externanl model.  Also I have to add that with MIR so much of the mix is done instantly for you. It is an amazing tool designed for musicians.  If you simply mix in default settings you get out of the box a fantastic sound. 
  • C
    C

    Dave, that's interesting. Not a unique experience, I suppose, but certainly not a common case either (I mean, the quality of the mixes you mentioned). My mixes are dreadful, for instance, so I use all the help I could. While a lot of aspects can't be used as a reference, obivously (William mentioned a few reasons for this, too), the balance between dry and wet is something I lose track of very quickly (because ears get used to it), and like to refresh using a trusted source.

    Cheers,

    Crusoe.
  • A
    A
    Getting used to the sonic picture as we work on tracks is definitely a problem, which is why I try to work quickly and/or step away for a few days before resuming a project to gain fresh perspective. As for reference recordings, I went back and listened to an old recording of the Grieg Piano Concerto that used to be my definitive performance, only to feel different about it today, favouring a completely different interpretation (and different sound characteristics between the recordings). Similarly, my first home was a monochromatic decor with endless stainless steel, black tile, etc. Today, I prefer warm wood tones. We can only have references that align with our current taste. If I finish a piece that's too wet/drenched in reverb, I'll probably find it too dry in ten years :) Dave
  • J
    J

    Hi Dave,

    Finally I've found the time to listen to 'The Fall of Man'.

    It seems very cinematic to me and out of your normal comfort zone. But that doesn't say anything about the qualities of the piece. You skillfully melted different styles and genres to one beautiful organic entity with so many subtle and craftlyl designed sonic patterns. The somewhat unnatural balance within the orchestra gives it some touch of studio recording, wheras the strings put us back on the concert stage. Let's summarize the composition as surprising and refreshing. Not an highly innovative piece, but with so many creative ideas.

    I agree with the rather dry ambience. You know I prefer close recordings, but in this case a tiny little bit more room would improve the overall sound experience.

    Congrats!

    Jos
  • J
    J

    Wrong post
  • A
    A
    last edited
    last edited

    @Jos Wylin said:

    Hi Dave,

    Finally I've found the time to listen to 'The Fall of Man'.

    It seems very cinematic to me and out of your normal comfort zone. But that doesn't say anything about the qualities of the piece. You skillfully melted different styles and genres to one beautiful organic entity with so many subtle and craftlyl designed sonic patterns. The somewhat unnatural balance within the orchestra gives it some touch of studio recording, wheras the strings put us back on the concert stage. Let's summarize the composition as surprising and refreshing. Not an highly innovative piece, but with so many creative ideas.

    I agree with the rather dry ambience. You know I prefer close recordings, but in this case a tiny little bit more room would improve the overall sound experience.

    Congrats!

    Jos

    Welcome back, Jos.  I'm guessing you were busy preparing parts for your upcoming performances in the New Year?  I'm sure it's tedious, as William and I have discussed, working to prepare scores/parts for live performance, but hopefully, the end result will be worth the effort.

    Thanks for your comments on The Fall of Man.  It's not as out of my usual zone as you might think, only that I share works on the VSL forum that are more in line with the "classical" style (you might be horrified to hear some of the more silly/commercial things I've written!)

    As for ambiance, a little wetter, a little dryer, one never knows exactly where that perfect point is.  Our studio is not treated and we've kind of developed a reference point for where things sound in there on our own equipment, that may or may not translate in other environments.  Thanks for listening!

    Cheers,

    Dave

    p.s. Your follow-up comment was meant for William's fine brass piece, but you accidentally posted it on this thread.  
  • J
    J

    Excuse me Dave as I'm unfashionably late to this party here but what strikes me about this piece is the main theme.  It's really a beautifully dark and cinematic theme.  I've noticed that about your music lately.  I'm starting to recognize discernible themes that I didn't recognize before.  Maybe I just never noticed but everything I was going to say about this piece has already been said so I'll end it here.

    Well done!  
  • A
    A

    Hi Jasen,

    Thank you again for taking the time to listen/comment in spite of your busy lifestyle.  This piece is definitely designed to be more accessible, with a clear Hollywood-esque theme.  It's true that some of my concert music might not be as structurally clear...this is by design, as I do think there's a place for more challenging music that may require multiple listens to absorb and/or music that relies on other elements rather than strong thematic material (although I always try to weave a cohesive work together, even if it's via shorter motives, or fragmented melodies).  I'm not for nonsensical stuff that has nothing at all one can grasp on to...there should at least be some rhythmic or harmonic structure that keeps a listener engaged.

    Cheers!

    Dave
  • PaulP Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on