Hi Dave

i'll have to try that, as currently i just use the features in Sibelius. I have breifly tried to adjust the performance in Logic with the Midi generated from Sibelius, but i have to admit that (for me anyway) i find Vienna Instruments Pro really hard to use in Logic, as i havnt had much luck (any really!!) in changing the articulations and then tweekeing them.

i'm sure im doing something really stupid, but ive come from east west quantum leap and there are pluggins for Logic so you can switch the articulations really easily. i cant find anything like that for VSL.

I have to say that im new to VSL and am blown away by them, and the way it 'just works' with Sibelius is the reason ive invested in them and i could not be happier if im honest.

i have noticed that they have expression maps made for Cubase and wondered if youd recommend that DAW instead, as id love to be able to get the best playback possible.

Do you think id have a better experiance using Cubase rather than Logic?

kindest regards mate

Paul

Hi Paul,

The only experience I've had with Logic was wayyyy back in the day.  In my university days, I took a course where the professor assigned us the task of creating a printed score for a Bach fugue, using Logic.  This was the early 2000's, and all I remember was being frustrated that in a music technologies course that was supposed to survey various notation and sequencer programs, the prof only focussed on the one tool he used: Logic.  I did the score in Finale and after getting a very good grade for the result, I faced his wrath when he learned I didn't produce it in Logic :) lol

But I digress.  I use Cubase as it's the only sequencer I have learned.  They all have their strengths and weaknesses.  The learning curve is always steep, but for me, the motivation to improve my knowledge has been organic, in that the reward is making my own compositions sound as good as I'm capable.  I would lack the motivation to learn any music software, if I was only assigned random pieces to mockup, as I was in school.  

In any case, with Cubase, I don't make use of expression maps.  I have found Beat Kaufmann's tutorials on structuring keyswitches/organizing matrices in V.I. Pro to be quite helpful, and have refined my template/workflow over the past few years.  Nothing remains static: over time, you'll make modifications, discover new techniques to improve your output/efficiency, etc.  The basic take away is:  it's easy to write notes in a notation program and play them back with a modicum of decent sound quality (especially if you're integrating the VSL instruments into the playback); it's a much bigger, time consuming, learning process to take those scores in to a DAW and craft them in to life-like performances.  Be patient, enjoy the process and the growth, and remain positive and steadfast in your commitment to improve.  At least, that's what's worked for me.

Best wishes!

Dave

Hi Dave

Thanks so much for taking the time to give that advise, i'll keep trying to get things better, as its great to know it'll be worth the effort.

its funny but ive been using a similar thing with logic with my band in that ive adapted my workflow over time...but for some reason forgot that once i started writting with Sibelius!

Thanks again for everything...and im really looking forwards to checking out your other movements once there done

Kindest

Paul

Movement 2 is here. Hope you enjoy!

String Quartet No. 2 Mvt. 2 by David Carovillano

Cheers!

Dave

Hi Dave,

I listened to the both movements. One gotta love those solo strings, right? :) 

Again, a very idea-rich, mature composition. Certainly above my modest abilities, so consider the following comments to be questions rather than actual criticism.

I didn't expect that major chord at the end of the 2nd movement, that was fun :) I liked a few other moments when the piece took an unpredictable turn for me (one is discussed below). String quartets are not something my ear is used to, but I do appreciate the amount of work you've put into this. All 4 voices are clear and independent, and there never was a moment when I was bored.

One detail that caught my attention was at 3:43-3:48 in the 2nd movement (it repeats a few times throughout this movement). There's a descending melodic line that suddenly stops and then continues after a pause. I wonder why did you decide it to be this way? If there's a verbal way to explain this, of course. Somehow I can't wrap my head around it.

About the mix. The cello appears to be closer to the listener than the violin, making it more prominent in the sound pciture. The "normal" position for the cello would be behind the other players, due to its strong sonority, right? I'm not saying you had to do it this way, just curious to know your reason for these players' positions.

All the best,

Crusoe.

Thanks for listening and commenting, Crusoe.  I'll address your questions below (in bold)

@crusoe said:

Hi Dave,

I listened to the both movements. One gotta love those solo strings, right? 😊 

Again, a very idea-rich, mature composition. Certainly above my modest abilities, so consider the following comments to be questions rather than actual criticism.  -Thank you :)

I didn't expect that major chord at the end of the 2nd movement, that was fun 😊 - Hmm, it's just a D Major chord (the tonic chord of the piece).  Perhaps what is shocking, is that preceding that final chord, I create a dissonant phrase, with jarring szforzandi that might leave you suspecting that the piece will not end "cheerily on D Major."  All part of the journey and sprinkling in some personality.

I liked a few other moments when the piece took an unpredictable turn for me (one is discussed below). String quartets are not something my ear is used to, but I do appreciate the amount of work you've put into this. All 4 voices are clear and independent, and there never was a moment when I was bored.  -Thanks again...I really believe in story-telling through music, and take the same opportunities to vary structure, form, harmony, as a film-maker/novelist use literary devices to further the narrative.

One detail that caught my attention was at 3:43-3:48 in the 2nd movement (it repeats a few times throughout this movement). There's a descending melodic line that suddenly stops and then continues after a pause. I wonder why did you decide it to be this way? If there's a verbal way to explain this, of course. Somehow I can't wrap my head around it. -Well, as Hans Christian Andersen said, "when words fail, music speaks."  If I wanted to explain my thoughts through words, I wouldn't have written music 😊  Seriously though, it's for dramatic effect.  The ear hears the phrase and the subsequent pause and connects the continuing phrase, which has a greater impact than if I extended the melody through the rest (especially since the piece has so much movement...those brief pauses really provide respite for the ears.)  Think of it as an excited person making a declamatory statement, then "sighing" to catch their breath, before continuing to speak.

About the mix. The cello appears to be closer to the listener than the violin, making it more prominent in the sound pciture. The "normal" position for the cello would be behind the other players, due to its strong sonority, right? I'm not saying you had to do it this way, just curious to know your reason for these players' positions. Your observeration is correct, in that the cello's presence does seem closer.  On the Mir stage, it is a standard semi-circle formation (sometimes the violins sit together of course): violin 1, viola, cello (both further back) and violin 2.  That said, the mic placement, left at default position, essentially means that it's closer to violin 2 and cello than violin 1 and viola.  Further, the cello samples seem to be more "present" than violin 1 in a side by side comparison at comparable velocity/volume levels.  If one compensates by adjusting the cello's velocities "down", it loses the bite or character needed.  Finally, I think I'm guilty in general of bringing the cello up a little, because I find it adds a little body to an otherwise "trebly-sounding string quartet."  Anyway, there's no right or wrong way to do it, just preferences.

Thanks again for taking the time to comment!

Dave

All the best,

Crusoe.

Thanks for the detailed response, the insight into cello's positioning is particularly interesting.

@Another User said:

Perhaps what is shocking, is that preceding that final chord, I create a dissonant phrase, with jarring szforzandi that might leave you suspecting that the piece will not end "cheerily on D Major."

Exactly. That was my expectation, and yes, this super-quick recapitluation is what I paid attention to. 

That is another excellent movement -  it is a rather wild and funny in parts, like the instruments are being naughty at times.  I really like it and I think players will really want to do this.   

@William said:

That is another excellent movement -  it is a rather wild and funny in parts, like the instruments are being naughty at times.  I really like it and I think players will really want to do this.   

Hi Dave

Thats brilliant, I really enjoyed that mate. Well done fella

Hi Paul,

Thanks so much!  Hope your journey into DAW programming for your music is underway.  Remember, baby steps :)

Cheers,

Dave

So, with these 2 movements, the string quartet is complete. I have enjoyed sharing my music on this forum for the past few years, but have decided for a variety of reasons that I'm going to take a break from it all for a while. I'll still visit the forum, because I do enjoy learning and reading about other's successes, and hope that new members will contribute positively going forward.

Thank you to those that have supported me, and even to those that have been critical. The funny thing is, I had so many goals set out for myself when I first started posting on the VSL forum. I've failed miserably in achieving most of them, but somehow am at peace with the fact that even though I haven't been able to figure out how to "break through with composition", I've at least created a body of work for which I'm proud and able to leave behind, and I was able to do it on my terms.

String Quartet No. 2, Mvt. 3

String Quartet No. 2, Mvt. 4

Cheers!

Dave

Hi Dave

Your 4th piece is amazing..it sounds superb!

Well done mate, i think the whole quartet piece is brilliant.

I enjoyed that alot mate

take care mate, and keep up the great work fella

have a good one

Paul

Dave those sound great.  Congratulations on getting the whole thing done!  Also that crack you made about miserably failing - what?  You've posted some really fine music, that is not failing! Also a lot of your performance/ programming is really some of the best.  I am sad you are leaving as your music, Philippe Baylac, Old Max Hamburg, Wayne Peppercorn, JSG,  and of course Guy The Yoda of MIDI, and a select number of others are the main reason to come to this Forum to be honest.  It is really an independent musical forum that evolved spontaneously thanks to VSL being nice enough to allow composers to share and compare works.  Of course it helps them also because it shows the incredible range of the instruments.  Anyway thanks for posting your excellent music here! 

Hi Dave,

I pretty much share the William's sentiment. You mentioned before that you believe in importance of drama in music (I share this belief). With this quartet you prove to stay true to it. It's dramatic, honest (no drama for the sake of drama itself), and the VSL rendering doesn't leave much to be desired. 

P.S. The 3rd movement had the lyricism that made me understand your previous point about the instrument positions.

Thank you so much for your positive words, Paul, William, and Crusoe.  They're very meaningful to me at a time when I'm quite down on the whole idea of continuing to write music.  I'm sure every composer wishes for validation, especially from colleagues, and I've been grateful to receive this from the few of you that have thoughtfully shared comments on a regular basis.  Thanks again, and I wish you nothing but success in your own musical endeavours!

All the best,

Dave

I just listened to the entire quartet, having not been on this site much during the past two months. 

I enjoyed your work, and as string quartets often leave me dissatisfied, this was no exception. You have written a lot of music in the past 6 months or so. Most of it is listenable and enjoyable. We all (living composers) have a tremendous weight on our shoulders. That weight is the burden of comparison with 250 years of outstanding composers. I struggle with this issue myself, constantly. What do I have to offer that will really contribute anything to the classical repertoire?

Ultimately, we just have to compose what we ourselves want to hear. And if that makes us famous, or if we just slave away in obscurity, that is still all we can do. If you find no joy in it, it is probably best to do something else.

I went through my own crises of confidence recently. But being 65 years old and retired, I suppose I will just keep trying. 

Anyway, it is a nice piece, and you can be proud of it.

Paul

That is true.  Also I think anyone with the slightest talent and desire to create something in the arts has to always keep moving forward or die - like that shark metaphor.  And obviously Dave has a lot of talent.   Or like that universal trait of children that  when given paints, they just start painting. They don't think beforehand "Am I good enough?  Will my painting really add to the world of art, be genuinely significant and truly compete with Picasso?" 

I think one has to cultivate the childish enthusiasm always.  In other words, stop being an adult.  They are really depressing.  

Hi Dave (And Becky),

Finally I found the time to listen attentively to your second string quartet.

To put it in short: it's one of the best I heard during the last two years. The neo-classical language suites you so well and the mastery of the string techniques is getting better and better. Of course it's a little idiot to choose one part, but if I have to express a preference, I would choose the 4th one, because of its dense and strong story, pressed in an expressive short movement, still without losing any quality.

As a whole, this quartet carries undoubtedly your stamp, your signiture. I've noticed that you are developing an own style of writing, even in this small orchestral strength, which requires so much insight in technique, harmony, counterpoint to realise an almost intellectual tissue of construction, form, sound building, variation, expression, emotion... all of which you seem to control easily and perfectly. For sure, Dave, a great composition!

If you allow me a couple of observations. In the first part, you seem to struggle with the glissandi, which you absolutely want to practise. Maybe it's a little overdone here and they're not all performed as they should/could.
A second thought: in part 3 some of the bow attacks are out of synchronisation because they  are too slow or late, or the attack slider was too low (detache).
These being minor details that disappear in an overwhelming, great performance.

Many congrats!

Jos

Hi Jos,

Your facility with words and your ability to describe in such vivid detail, your feelings and observations on everything you listen to on this forum is nothing short of amazing.  

Thank you for your response.  This string quartet was incredibly difficult in terms of getting the samples to respond as necessary, and the areas you outlined (especially in my own view, the point you raised about the 3rd movement) are examples of the challenges rendering a piece like this presents.  There's no room to hide anything, and the slower/more expressive the material, the more difficult it is to shape the lines and create a fluid, "ebb and flow" performance.

I've heard people mention that with things like string quartets, it's often easier to just hire a quartet to record the piece.  I don't think they're referring to this type of music, the complexities and technical challenges of which would require significant rehearsal time and what would likely still be a very long studio session with numerous takes/splicing to achieve the most cogent performance possible.  For this reason, I suck it up, and spend as much time as necessary doing the best I can with my limited array of virtual instruments (no extended libraries, for instance).  I'm grateful we have our VSL samples; they literally give composers a voice and a chance to express their musical ideas without being beholden to the almighty performers (even if getting performances is still a noble, just goal.)

All the best,

Dave