Hey Guy!  Did someone swat that bee at the end?

Wow! That is such a great little piece, really a wonderful composition.  And it sounds so perfect - there is no audible difference between this and live.  It is such fun to listen to your brilliant music.   

@William said:

Hey Guy!  Did someone swat that bee at the end?

Yeah but didn't work, his friends got worried and other members of the colony came looking for him in my house.

@Simon Ravn said:

fahl5, I must say, you come off as very arrogant throughout this thread, blaming people for lack of skill, not grasping/understanding Synchron Strings etc.

Yes, VSL has always had extremely good software! I use Ensemble Pro all day long. It's an amazing piece of software! The new Synchron player is also rather nice - and certainly was necessary for a product as complicated, structure-wise, as Synchron Strings.

But but... it's the results and the sound that counts. And as countless have already pointed out, Synchron Strings is off. Very off. It sounds lifeless and thin, generally speaking. There are good aspects of it; I like the clarity of it, but sadly when the tone is thin and lifeless it doesn't help much.

And then you go mocking other libraries, because they use Kontakt + scripting. YES they do, and it creates far better results than the legato of Synchron Strings. So who gives a f*ck how it works, as long as it works better?

You really seem to have lost focus here, trying to defend VSL based on former merits, "groundbreaking innovation of the Samplestructure" and all kinds of other nonsense that really don't amount to anything if you don't get any musicality into the samples.

Oh, and by all means, if you want to convince me of the brilliance of SyS, feel free to post any music you have done with it.

 

EDIT: Oh I found a mockup of yours, "Donna Diana Ouverture". You have it right there: The lifeless-ness of the strings. And a very nasal tone too, that I think EQ could help on but let it rest... This certainly doesn't showcase how brilliant SyS is. I don't know your skills towards mocking up orchestral music, so I can't tell if you could do better with other libraries but I certainly know libraries that sound much better, and that this mockup could be much better.

+1 

@Simon Ravn said:

fahl5, I must say, you come off as very arrogant throughout this thread.

Fahl5, 2 totally unrelated things. One can easily express himself without sounding arrogant. 

+1 (+1,000,000 who if they read this thread would also add their +1)

At this point, I rarely post.  I am more of a church composer/hobby user, not a "high end" user.  My budget for samples is very, very limited.  Up to now I have lived in the land of VSL.  What is currently going on concerns me.  On the one hand, there is that massive negative/hostile thread against SyS on "that other forum."  Here, there appears to be - at times - an almost equally hostile thread in favor of it.  To someone who has to spend money on samples with great care, neither thread is helpful.

At one time I was a participant in the Sonar community.  As things spiraled downward, negative reactions towards any criticism increased significantly.  Fahl5 may prove to be right, I don't know.  What I do know is that when companies fail to take justified complaints (note the use of "justified") seriously, those companies tend to suffer financially, as the market reacts.  To me, there is no other company out there that has been able to do what VSL has done.

But so far SyS seems more of a "miss" than a "hit."  That is not a direct conern.  No company is perfect.  The issue is how VSL will handle the criticism/concerns.  Following the "Cakewalk/Sonar" model in that regard would not be wise.  There are solid reasons to hope that SyS will reach VSL standards, given VSL's track record.  As for now, if I were to purchase another VSL string library, it would likely be AP strings.  SyS seems to much of a question mark at this point.

@Another User said:

One can easily express himself without sounding arrogant.

But obviously as many very passionate postings poor in arguemnts demonstrates:

It is again much easier to become personal insinuative, and slam someone who has just another opinion as "arrogant" and with "+1" and likewise completly meaninghless argunmentfree and substanceless comments , than to seriously answer concrete arguments. with concrete arguements as I have done.

Neither Simon nor Pixelpoet answered on any argument. That is sad, because it make their criticism appear being more or less emotion, without any concret intention to really improve anything at all.

Did you really think that VSL deserve that kind of discussion?

Again I am very very interested to hear from someone who complains here at least one exsample where he just shows with concrete "results" how any of the nearly 20 peices I posted here made with Synchron Strings would be made any better with any other Library.

And dont pretend now it would be "arrogant" to ask you for "results" while you pretend thats all what counts! Either you are able to or you should be more cautious in your statements. That is just fair.

@nolder

I am very confindent, that VSL will adress what ever serious and justified demands are discussed. But therefor the best way to reach that, if one think anything might be improved, to argue concrete to come to the most prezise description of what is needed. So if realy anyone intends to improve anything, there is no other way than a constructive discussion and argumentation.

this post is deleted - no longer interested

@fahl5 said:

Again I am very very interested to hear from someone who complains here at least one exsample where he just shows with concrete "results" how any of the nearly 20 peices I posted here made with Synchron Strings would be made any better with any other Library.

I don't know, all libraries have their strenth and weaknesses and need some adjustments and time to get the most of them, however, I would post less pieces and work more on each one, there is room for improvment on the programming side alone, and I mean this in a constructive way. It's like you're playing Blackjack and hoping your next hand will the winning hand. Also, before saying you have that Hollywood sound, let others be the judge of that first, no? That comes off as quite pretentious. 

@fahl5 said:

Again I am very very interested to hear from someone who complains here at least one exsample where he just shows with concrete "results" how any of the nearly 20 peices I posted here made with Synchron Strings would be made any better with any other Library.

I don't know, all libraries have their strenth and weaknesses and need some adjustments and time to get the most of them

Guy is right here imv. The best musical results with all current libraries on the market are surely to be had with a mixture...horses for courses..as they say. I don't see any reason for being purist in this regard.

@Veola said:

I just cannot understand how people can say there is nothing wrong with this lib? Don't you compare to other libs or listen to recordings? Don't you want something new, improved or groundbreaking from a new lib?

@fahl5, I know that people can get lost in the programming and forget to use their ears and emotions to judge the whole piece. No offence, but you seem a bit like this, pushing as a many pieces through as possible.

Guy Bacos got some demos on the product page, BUT the ones that sound acceptable are the ones layered with other instruments. Its basically covering up the problems of the lib.

The Bee  (Not layered)

This is very nice Guy - the violin shorts work very well for this. Still in a real recording, there would be more intonation "problems" in the attacks, which would add more life and realism. They are too spot on. But the clarity is really amazing. On cellos and basses there is quite a bit of a machine gun effect going on. Probably because every recording is so "perfect". But it is not an easy thing to pull off by any library.

@Another User said:

One can easily express himself without sounding arrogant.

But obviously as many very passionate postings poor in arguemnts demonstrates:

It is again much easier to become personal insinuative, and slam someone who has just another opinion as "arrogant" and with "+1" and likewise completly meaninghless argunmentfree and substanceless comments , than to seriously answer concrete arguments. with concrete arguements as I have done.

Neither Simon nor Pixelpoet answered on any argument. That is sad, because it make their criticism appear being more or less emotion, without any concret intention to really improve anything at all.

Again I am very very interested to hear from someone who complains here at least one exsample where he just shows with concrete "results" how any of the nearly 20 peices I posted here made with Synchron Strings would be made any better with any other Library.

I don't have time to do a massive mockup like yours, but you should only have to look around on the different library producers websites and listen to demos. If you can't hear that a lot of that sounds way more realistic than what you have pulled off... well, then I don't think we'll get anywhere anyway.

Okay, even though this is a discussion on "how to improve" and I did refrain to voice my opinion because of some really hostility here (and on the "other forum") but here it is:

First of all I have the hope that the all the discussion and even the anger towards other members is simply due to the fact that everyone just wants the best and get the most out of the product which seemed to be so great. (I still get excited by the marketing text and promises that were made by VSL, well somehow...)
There is a lot of passion involved.

I did pre-order SyS. I still somehow trust VSL as I love their products (even some parts of Sys Strings I ) and was always very happy with their support.
Even tough I could be bashed for also saying it: I am dissappointed by Synchron Strings I but I still have high hopes (maybe because I have to and dont want to move on by selling it and going with another company. Also I am not sure anyone would buy it except for 50% off as the reputation of the product and VSL as a whole seems by reading this forum and "the other forum" to have suffered a lot. Thats just an observation)

Back to improvement:

Yes, I used Sys a lot, i mean Really a lot, even in "real" projects, both with VIP and Synchron Player. Yes, one gets better results with spending time on working with them... still there are a lot flaws and there is a lot of effort needed from the user (which is okay, but a lot of times it feels like fixing not polishing)

It is really hard to suggest what could be improved, especially with VSL not participating in discussing the topic and not knowing what Can be improved/they are willing to do. (It would suck to spend even more money for a second edition, and no - for now i wont buy SyS Chamber) - So lets mix suggestions with wishlist:

- If the legato samples cant be improved / more added, I hope that some additional programming/scripting can help the functionality of the legato. Right now - no matter what anyone here has tried - the legato is subtle. Most of us hoped for more options especially at this price point. Maybe adding a time stretched folder could also help?

- I sometimes hear strange background noise in some samples. Maybe the samples could be reworked?

- The violins are indeed very piercing if not handled correct (which means corrected). Using the built-in mic eq or the Vienna Suite did help, but still it is strange that the whole ensemble somehow doesnt seem to be that well balanced as it seemed. 

- Yes, the sound and behaviour is not very expressive and lively, but it seems like this is on purpose and this kind of sound Has its purpose. Layering and lots of CC riding did help when I wanted more emotive string sound.

- Yes, the shorts are great - We all hear that. The Sfz is okay, but I still dont get my head around about that whole stacked approach.

- Synchron Player is a ongoing process of development, I get it. Still: Please integrate more features that VIP already had, humanization being one thing.

- I dont like that we dont get real statements from VSL which means not knowing where we are heading at or what their views are. Especially after the debacle of communication the post-poned proper release was. 

I am still trying to improve my workflow and approach with using Synchron Strings I as I still need to put in a lot of effort into working with them for even making them sound allright.

There are a lot of of positive things about this library, but a lot of bad things - Every library has its flaws, we get it.

VSL set the bar really high with their previous products, legacy and with their marketing. 

I know I am there are a lot of things that were already said, but lets hope for the best : )))

@Simon Ravn said:

The Bee  (Not layered)

This is very nice Guy - the violin shorts work very well for this. Still in a real recording, there would be more intonation "problems" in the attacks, which would add more life and realism. They are too spot on. But the clarity is really amazing. On cellos and basses there is quite a bit of a machine gun effect going on. Probably because every recording is so "perfect". But it is not an easy thing to pull off by any library.

Sure, it could be looser here and there, and with less preciness on the tuning. Maybe an alternative version with the addition of synchron chamber strings might be good. This way, you could appreciate the excellent clarity of synchron strings while having some leeway with other aspects. 

I listened to this on a good monitor system and it sounded perfect, and there was no machine gun effect whatsoever.  The issue of it being too perfect didn't strike me at all, and I am a maniac for imprecise timing. 
But maybe I was distracted by the great composition.  That tends to happen with Guy's pieces even though they are the best "demos" (the word doesn't really do them justice!)

@Another User said:

It is really hard to suggest what could be improved, especially with VSL not participating in discussing the topic and not knowing what Can be improved.

@fahl5 said:

So do not try to debase in that way those, whose arguments you can not answer more seriously.👎

Oh yes teacher!

@fahl5 said:

So do not try to debase in that way those, whose arguments you can not answer more seriously.👎

Oh yes teacher!

Ok you exactly did the same thing again. This thread is not meant for your aggressive personal polemics but about how to improve the Synchron Strings.

@fahl5 said:

So do not try to debase in that way those, whose arguments you can not answer more seriously.👎

Oh yes teacher!

Ok you exactly did the same thing again. This thread is not meant for your aggressive personal polemics but about how to improve the Synchron Strings.

fahl5, ever heard of "projection"?