Thank you, Fabio.  Your comments are deeply appreciated.  I can certainly relate to the challenges of rendering larger scale works.  This concerto actually interrupted a large orchestral suite I've been working on...I wrote it 3 years ago, and am only now getting around to it, and it's even far more daunting than this piece.  

Which brings me to a point:  I really hope that the future evolution of virtual instruments includes refining and improving the workflow potential, so that composers can more intuitively work with samples, more quickly.  I'm not talking about "out the box" ease, because as artists, we definitely want to interpret and create our works with thoughtful consideration (not just pushing a button and having the computer perform it) but there has to be a way to improve the initial interpretation of a midi score (as in, greatly improving how notation programs like Finale use "humanization" to playback a score) so that we can focus on the small details to tweak and polish the midi file after the basics have been done for us.

All the best,

Dave

You are asking for thoughts about. Its a pleasure to let you know mine.

To be honest I would not consider composing like that, since there is of course very much music written in a conventional style like that, If ever I think one must have at least anything, which made it worth to listen especially to this music. But this a matter of personal opinion and I respect yours not to occupy with the Work other ggreat and gifted composers have already done but frankly putting your Ideas beside them. This is at least couiragous if you really know what great Work was already done. However this is of coursae just a personal decision.

When it comes to the composition itself it sometimes appears to me, as if this Soul is not yet that well rested. since I hear many notes that seem to me more or less playing around, not so much focused on any convincing inner development of the inner thought of this composition. Again of course this is just my personal impression.

When it comes to the usage of the VSL-Samples I hear how much you like the old VSL-Samples perhaps sometimes without being aware of their shortcomings. The whole mix seem to me very very close as if the litener sits just among the musicians without giving enough the impression of a room which might unify the impression of the music as a whole. While especially the Woodwinds (and this is of course a bit a problems of the VSL Woodwinds we dio have so far) are very unrealistic dominant, so much that scarcly the impression of a real orchestra comes up when I listen. But that might also be caused by the fact, that you doesnt seem to be that diligent with the details of a musical breathing phrasing of each Instrument/Voice. It might be, that this is not only a problem of programming the samples right, since I know they can provide much more realism in this aspect, but also a question how much the phrasing has been already considered while composing. So both might be important reasons which makes alltiogether sound to me very midi and programmed. 

Just my two cents, but they a<re honest and perhaps helpful. So dont give up. If you love music, spent the time it needs to become a satisfying result.

@fahl5 said:

You are asking for thoughts about. Its a pleasure to let you know mine.

To be honest I would not consider composing like that, since there is of course very much music written in a conventional style like that, If ever I think one must have at least anything, which made it worth to listen especially to this music. But this a matter of personal opinion and I respect yours not to occupy with the Work other ggreat and gifted composers have already done but frankly putting your Ideas beside them. This is at least couiragous if you really know what great Work was already done. However this is of coursae just a personal decision.

When it comes to the composition itself it sometimes appears to me, as if this Soul is not yet that well rested. since I hear many notes that seem to me more or less playing around, not so much focused on any convincing inner development of the inner thought of this composition. Again of course this is just my personal impression.

When it comes to the usage of the VSL-Samples I hear how much you like the old VSL-Samples perhaps sometimes without being aware of their shortcomings. The whole mix seem to me very very close as if the litener sits just among the musicians without giving enough the impression of a room which might unify the impression of the music as a whole. While especially the Woodwinds (and this is of course a bit a problems of the VSL Woodwinds we dio have so far) are very unrealistic dominant, so much that scarcly the impression of a real orchestra comes up when I listen. But that might also be caused by the fact, that you doesnt seem to be that diligent with the details of a musical breathing phrasing of each Instrument/Voice. It might be, that this is not only a problem of programming the samples right, since I know they can provide much more realism in this aspect, but also a question how much the phrasing has been already considered while composing. So both might be important reasons which makes alltiogether sound to me very midi and programmed. 

Just my two cents, but they a<re honest and perhaps helpful. So dont give up. If you love music, spent the time it needs to become a satisfying result.

Thank you, Steffen Fahl, for your highly accurate, non-prejudiced comments.  For those that are wondering, I was partaking in a little humour on another thread, which had degenerated at the expense of Steffen Fahl's rendering of a Tchaikovsky piece.  I knew I would get the response above and I'm so happy I did, because it just confirmed something to me that I wasn't quite certain about 😉

Cheers!

Dave

Dave,

Just letting you know that I have not finked out on listening to and giving you some thoughts on your concerto. I am on my 2nd pass through the recordings and I'm sure it will take at least one more. First impressions are important but they ain't everything (for example, periodically I try some food that I've believed for years that I didn't like, only to discover that it was, in fact, delicious). The next step is to write what I think in a way that is clear, helpful, respesctful, constructive...and doesn't make me sound like an ignoramus (this final hope may be a vain one but it's worth a shot).

Thank you for asking about the band concert. It featured one of the two adult wind bands that I perform with. This was part of a weekly summer series in a park in Manitou Springs, CO (a small tourist town at the base of Pikes Peak) that has been going for more than 20 years. Historic bandshell, nice crowd of locals and tourists, good arrangements of well-known music played by a crew of folks who are doing their best and having a good time. Not a bad group...there are in fact a few pretty serious ringers that always make me smile when they get a short solo. You'd think that by now I'd come up with a new hobby...

I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Again, congratulations on the performances and I look forward to hearing the live recordings.

Tom

@fahl5 said:

You are asking for thoughts about. Its a pleasure to let you know mine.

To be honest...

Just my two cents, but they a<re honest and perhaps helpful. So dont give up. If you love music, spent the time it needs to become a satisfying result.

@Acclarion said:

Thank you, Fabio.  Your comments are deeply appreciated.  I can certainly relate to the challenges of rendering larger scale works.  This concerto actually interrupted a large orchestral suite I've been working on...I wrote it 3 years ago, and am only now getting around to it, and it's even far more daunting than this piece.  

Which brings me to a point:  I really hope that the future evolution of virtual instruments includes refining and improving the workflow potential, so that composers can more intuitively work with samples, more quickly.  I'm not talking about "out the box" ease, because as artists, we definitely want to interpret and create our works with thoughtful consideration (not just pushing a button and having the computer perform it) but there has to be a way to improve the initial interpretation of a midi score (as in, greatly improving how notation programs like Finale use "humanization" to playback a score) so that we can focus on the small details to tweak and polish the midi file after the basics have been done for us.

All the best,

Dave

Hi all,

Tom:  Thanks for following up.  I appreciate you listening and even giving it multiple opportunities to "sit with your ears."  That said, it should go without saying that you don't owe me anything: criticism, praise, advice, etc.  In fact, reading between the lines of your post, I can assume the piece doesn't resonate with you and you're trying to figure out a way to say that nicely.  It's already been said nicely :)  lol  In any event, I read on another forum where a guy said about criticisms of finished works something to the effect of, "do people that critique pieces that have been uploaded as final works, expect the composer to go back and alter the production.  It's a done deal! (loosly paraphrasing his words).  I'm in agreement with that.  For instance, recently, William brought to light a legato issue in the viola of my trio.  While I fully agreed with him, I'm not in a position to go back and "fix it." as there simply is too much music and I prefer to keep going forward.  So with that, I say to you:  you are free to criticize, praise, offer thoughts as you wish, with no judgment about the depth or quality of your response.  If you simply say, "I like it" or "I don't", or even "I listened but don't have any opinion either way" I'll appreciate it all (except of course for blatant cruelty...read below)

Fabio:  First, with regard to the gentlemen known for his comedy far more than his music, he continues to be the source of great amusement for those on another forum...many of whom have offered him their opinion of the Tchaikovsky.  He has also been forcibly kicked out of forums dating back to as early as 2008.  In short, he's simply not the kind of person I choose to listen to as his only goal is to elevate himself at the expense of others. 

As to the project you described, I am wholeheartedly behind you pursuing this!  It would be a fabulous, game changing tool to improve the efficiency of our productions.  Are you a software engineer by trade (with a musical background obviously) that would have a hand in the actual design of such a tool, or simply a musician serving as a consultant to the software people?

All the best,

Dave

Dave,

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I'll plunge right in, always bearing in mind the old aphorism about opinions being like a certain portion of the anatomy: everybody's got one...

I am a person with little formal music education and of modest talent; however, my love of music is sincere and lifelong. I know that some music that I love is not really that good and some music that I accept as being among the greatest artistic achievements of Western thought does not resonate with me. I have always prided myself on being able to tell the difference. When I first heard your concerto, I didn't know what to think. I liked the sound of it but I couldn't get a grip on it. It seemed disjointed, darting from idea to idea without giving me time to hear what you were saying. But I did not assume this was a reflection of the quality of the piece; it could very well be the quality of my effort as a listener. So I vowed to give it another go. Was I ever glad that I did!

With each subsequent audition the structure and development of the tune reveals itself. It is an exquisite work, easily the best thing of yours that I've heard. The word mercurial comes to mind...probably because it makes me think of Mercury from The Planets. This is not just a work of skill, there is obviously love in this thing. I cannot say anything better than that.

As for the production, let's get this out of the way right off the top: the solo clarinet is absolutely astonishing. I mean full-on Jay Bacal-level stuff. I put on my best headphones and turned up the gas. Even relatively short sustained notes grow and breath, the articulations are spot on. Kudos to you and Becky!

As for the orchestra, the subsequent hearings brought this conclusion to my mind: Were it my creation, I would have orchestrated it lighter (as a brass player, this feels like sacrilege!). I'm thinking small chamber strings with a solo flute, oboe, basson, and horn, plus kettle drums and a dash of auxiliary concussion. I'm reminded of the first time I heard the original orchestration of Appalachian Spring after growing up on the big version. I still love the fat sound but I appreciate the clarity and purity of the lighter forces, which I think would be a real advantage for this piece. It would also help keep the clarinet right up front in live gig situations (and maybe make it more attractive for smaller groups and venues to perform).

All of that goes straight into the For-What-It's-Worth file. Congratulations on a wonderful achievement; you've got a fan (also For-What-It's-Worth). I can't imagine what it would feel like to be able to dedicate such a work to my wife...she tears up when I sing Have I Told You Lately That I Love You? at karaoke so I guess we all do what we can.

Warmest regards,

Tom

@Acclarion said:

As to the project you described, I am wholeheartedly behind you pursuing this!  It would be a fabulous, game changing tool to improve the efficiency of our productions.  Are you a software engineer by trade (with a musical background obviously) that would have a hand in the actual design of such a tool, or simply a musician serving as a consultant to the software people?

Well we will move the conversation to a more appropriate site to avoid off topic pollution, but I anticipate:

- Despite a solid Computer Science background coming from University and following working experiences, I'm not a software engineer, unfortunately. Otherwise probably I started and executed the project myself. I studied anyway the algorithmic logic behind and the investigation methods (e.g. expert system statistics, learning machine etc.) to build large databeses of articulations and expressive clichè. The work made by Robert Piéchaud for Finale is an example, but the work made by Wallander is a step forward: I did the same type of analysis with friends developers of pretty innovative Virtual Instruments, because they were managing automation of internal controllers to simulate and randomize specific articulations or articulations segments (e.g. attack, vibrato modulation, dynamic and tuning envelopes etc.) but we were checking manually short phrases, single samples etc. not entire pieces of music as modern system can now afford automatically.

- I'm graduated in Composition, choral music and conducting, and even if I don't mak a life out of music (I found too early a different job to make bigger money in different industry, and it was influencing my life and destiny) I have a large academic background and quite a bit of performance and conducting experience, (mostly in ancient music, but also folk, modern and pop) then yes I was consulting on the musical side some developers, beta testing and producing demos and experiments.

So keep in touch... 😊

@tchampe said:

Dave,

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I'll plunge right in, always bearing in mind the old aphorism about opinions being like a certain portion of the anatomy: everybody's got one...

I am a person with little formal music education and of modest talent; however, my love of music is sincere and lifelong. I know that some music that I love is not really that good and some music that I accept as being among the greatest artistic achievements of Western thought does not resonate with me. I have always prided myself on being able to tell the difference. When I first heard your concerto, I didn't know what to think. I liked the sound of it but I couldn't get a grip on it. It seemed disjointed, darting from idea to idea without giving me time to hear what you were saying. But I did not assume this was a reflection of the quality of the piece; it could very well be the quality of my effort as a listener. So I vowed to give it another go. Was I ever glad that I did!

With each subsequent audition the structure and development of the tune reveals itself. It is an exquisite work, easily the best thing of yours that I've heard. The word mercurial comes to mind...probably because it makes me think of Mercury from The Planets. This is not just a work of skill, there is obviously love in this thing. I cannot say anything better than that.

As for the production, let's get this out of the way right off the top: the solo clarinet is absolutely astonishing. I mean full-on Jay Bacal-level stuff. I put on my best headphones and turned up the gas. Even relatively short sustained notes grow and breath, the articulations are spot on. Kudos to you and Becky!

As for the orchestra, the subsequent hearings brought this conclusion to my mind: Were it my creation, I would have orchestrated it lighter (as a brass player, this feels like sacrilege!). I'm thinking small chamber strings with a solo flute, oboe, basson, and horn, plus kettle drums and a dash of auxiliary concussion. I'm reminded of the first time I heard the original orchestration of Appalachian Spring after growing up on the big version. I still love the fat sound but I appreciate the clarity and purity of the lighter forces, which I think would be a real advantage for this piece. It would also help keep the clarinet right up front in live gig situations (and maybe make it more attractive for smaller groups and venues to perform).

All of that goes straight into the For-What-It's-Worth file. Congratulations on a wonderful achievement; you've got a fan (also For-What-It's-Worth). I can't imagine what it would feel like to be able to dedicate such a work to my wife...she tears up when I sing Have I Told You Lately That I Love You? at karaoke so I guess we all do what we can.

Warmest regards,

Tom

Holy smokes, Tom!  Give yourself some credit:  a review like that is a creative achievement in itself!  You made me feel like it's all worthwhile.  Thank you so much for being a source of inspiration to continue making music.  

All the best,

Dave

p.s.  I used to sing Have I Told You Lately That I Love You (raspy voice and all) to my cat...before he attempted to claw my eyes out 😊

@fatis12_24918 said:

 

Well we will move the conversation to a more appropriate site to avoid off topic pollution, but I anticipate:

- Despite a solid Computer Science background coming from University and following working experiences, I'm not a software engineer, unfortunately. Otherwise probably I started and executed the project myself. I studied anyway the algorithmic logic behind and the investigation methods (e.g. expert system statistics, learning machine etc.) to build large databeses of articulations and expressive clichè. The work made by Robert Piéchaud for Finale is an example, but the work made by Wallander is a step forward: I did the same type of analysis with friends developers of pretty innovative Virtual Instruments, because they were managing automation of internal controllers to simulate and randomize specific articulations or articulations segments (e.g. attack, vibrato modulation, dynamic and tuning envelopes etc.) but we were checking manually short phrases, single samples etc. not entire pieces of music as modern system can now afford automatically.

- I'm graduated in Composition, choral music and conducting, and even if I don't mak a life out of music (I found too early a different job to make bigger money in different industry, and it was influencing my life and destiny) I have a large academic background and quite a bit of performance and conducting experience, (mostly in ancient music, but also folk, modern and pop) then yes I was consulting on the musical side some developers, beta testing and producing demos and experiments.

So keep in touch... 😊

I'd love to continue to follow your progress and encourage you to start a thread on the appropriate subforum that will get noticed by others, because it is clearly an area of interest and benefit to many of us!

Looking forward,

Dave

This sounds great, a really fine composition.  Also the clarinet programming is excellent  - congratulations on all of this huge amount of work.  

p.s.  I used to sing Have I Told You Lately That I Love You (raspy voice and all) to my cat...before he attempted to claw my eyes out 😊

[/quote]

Everyone's a critic! Next time, tell him what I always say when I get the mic: "I occasionally take requests...but most of the time I sing anyway." 😛 Of course in his case, you should probably say it while wearing safety goggles.

@William said:

This sounds great, a really fine composition.  Also the clarinet programming is excellent  - congratulations on all of this huge amount of work.  

Thanks so much, William.  You know how I value your opinion and appreciate you taking the time to listen and comment.

All the best,

Dave

Hi Dave

After two listens I guess I can say something about this impressive concerto. But first of all I find it a very nice gesture to dedicate the piece to Rebecca, wife and mother, solo clarinet player, source of inspiration and technical performance assistant... She really deserves it. How thoughtful of you. Hopefully she will perform it once live on stage!

Let's start with the composition itself. Actually I was overwhelmed by the first listen because of the musical content. The three parts show another soul, a different spirit in a most creative way. Without leaving the basic style, you managed to create in the movements a different ambience in which the clarinet plays an important part. It shows how you master the instrument in its technical abilities, without getting too cerebral. Everything remains listenable and musical, a great achievement in a piece of that scale.
OK, there might be some small balance issues between orchestra and woodwinds (brass and percussion), but they don't disturb me. One could always criticise for criticism's sake, but that usually doesn't bring much support or improvement.

The second listen confirmed my first impression and proves your musical freedom: not lead by one particular style or way of writing, tied to one or other composer or teacher. There I recognize myself. I refuse to stick to one period, style, technique and I hate modernism because I don't often understand what's going on, unless it's mere sonic experiment as a kind of soundscape. One of my teachers (a great composer btw) once told me that it was necessary to have a decent musical background to compose (to be able to judge yourself), but that you must put aside all compelling theories (harmony, strict counterpoint, chord progressions...) to be able to be creative in a personal way. They can only serve as technical basis to work on. And it's no use to repeat musical history, neither is throwing it away!

Well Dave, after my (too) long summer absence, I'm so glad I could pick up the forum activity by a masterpiece like your concerto. Looking forward to hear a live performance!

Jos

I can't express my gratitude to you, Jos, for taking the time to write such an extensive set of observations and I'm happy that you enjoyed the concerto.  Becky took a stab at the piece one evening (time is scarce with the baby), but there's still the little thing with finding a willing orchestra.  Lately, I haven't been feeling keen on reaching out to performers for a variety of reasons, and if getting small chamber groups on board is difficult, getting orchestras is nearly impossible for unknown composers.  

Cheers!

Dave

"Lately, I haven't been feeling keen on reaching out to performers for a variety of reasons, and if getting small chamber groups on board is difficult, getting orchestras is nearly impossible for unknown composers. " - Acclarion

I have had the same feeling for years now.  If you play in, or conduct, an orchestra or ensemble it is possible.  But in general players have no need for new composers, so they end up just ignoring them.  

I have started to develop an outright hostility to this situation - partly because of samples.  In other words, one strives to get a performance by the vaunted live players and their precious gift to you - the pathetically begging composer - and maybe once in a blue moon it succeeds. Then they do a lousy, hasty, under-rehearsed performance and it is inferior in every way compared to VSL.  

O.K. I am getting irritated - very easy to do on THIS subject!  

Hi Dave, William,

You can count me in, but I'm in a total different situation now. For 25 years I was leading a chamber ensemble (9 to 14 musicians) with whom we played mainly 18th century light music from the Flemish archives. That way I met many fine professional musicians and organisers of concerts. 
A few months ago, the mayor of my village (12 000 inhabitants) asked me to organise a concert with my symphonic music exclusively by the end of Februari 2019. Of course the cost was the main issue and a full professional syphonic ensemble would be out of reach for a small village like ours. So I had to look for a semi professional orchestra. In the neighbourhood, there is such an orchestra, with partly professionals and partly good amateurs. The conductor is a professional bassoon player and director of a music academy. He has a complete ensemble, even with all the percussion and a harp. They have received all the scores and parts and can start rehearsing.

In the village we have a modern church with a marvellous acoustic and I asked to play the concert there. Maybe they will play my accordion concerto as well, but again that depends on the price of the soloist.

Of course I can't expect a perfect performance. That would be priceless. But I'm very much pleased with the offer anyway, realising that this is really rare these days. And the community pays all the expences!

Jos

William:  As we've discussed, I'm fully in agreement with you and your "right to riot" when it comes to the treatment of composers by those who could give our music a chance to resonate with audiences.  Alas, as Liszt said, "mournful, but grand, is the destiny of the artist."  Finding value in what we do now guarantees some measure of success and purpose, rather than waiting and hoping for future recognition that likely will never come for most of us.

Jos:  Congratulations on this opportunity!  While being in a small town/village most often isn't condusive to getting discovered and/or receiving breakout opportunities, it also can have the effect of letting you build relationships and develop a following that would be difficult in larger cities that are swarmed with talent and are hyper-competitive and political.

Keep us abreast of the developments and here's hoping you get your accordion concerto performed by someone that will make you proud!

Cheers,

Dave

"...mournful, but grand, is the destiny of the artist..." - Liszt

This is recompense from one of the greatest heroes of music and art.