As a native English speaker, I agree with everything you said about the term "mock-up" and the conotations associated with the term. So let's get rid of that term.

@William said:

Both digital video allowing high quality cinema images created by one person instead of a whole studio, and sampled orchestra performance created by one person are incredibly powerful developments in artistic history.  The process of getting live performances is almost more schmoozing than music, just like getting a Hollywood (or other) studio to do one's own film ideas is almost ALL schmoozing.  But with the tools that now exist a person can work on symphonic music or cinema in the same way a solo painter or novelist creates his own work. 

It is true that these technological advances have given us the chance to express our musical thoughts convincingly and to essentially create defacto performances of our music without reliance on others.  But at the same time, this presents a new set of problems.  First, we may respond to the challenges of getting live performances and the politics that often surrounds the ability to break through and get the orchestras and chamber ensembles to recognize us and our work and be willing to program it, by essentially tuning them out and relying only on ourselves to create and publish our works.  But then what?  Where is the audience to listen and appreciate that work?  In theory, it is the billions of connected individuals online.  But reality has shown that it is almost impossible to get works heard and far less possible to develop a following online.  Even on these forums, much of the music gets heard 100-200 times with zero or very few comments (usually from the same small handful of fellow composers).

For me, why I am still pursuing live performances, comes back to the fact that there is joy in sharing a communal experience. Composer interacting with live musicians as they work to bring the vision of the piece to life.  Then, the opportunity to enjoy the performance with an audience and seeing their reactions is really a whole other level of reward than simply posting the work online and either getting little/no feedback.  

At the end of the day, many composers by their very nature are introverts that enjoy working in isolation.  And to that end, the tools we have today have enabled self reliance...but once the work is done, we still have to find an audience for it...which means schmoozing, working connections, building relationships...SIGH!

Dave

Yes that is absolutely true, I really just mean the ability to create something in these forms.  But finding the audience and getting things noticed is as you note more of a problem with all the vast quantity of stuff that already exists and live performance is still the best way.  Which is actually comforting in a way. 

Sorry imho the "performance" of music is one of the more important problems of music in history: the necessity to realise so much decisions nearly in the same time the result was heard.

It is a problem, because it reduces in many aspects the precision and possible reflection that might improve those musical decisions "made in a hurry" in a live-performance. What since more than 100 years made it so attractiv to develop so much technics to record and reproduce music always in order to improve those musical decisions.

And yes as far as we use sample libraries we have "solved" that "problem" in the currently presumably most detailed possible way. and to be honest that makes me look with more and more commiseration for those who nowaday still try to realise music with their chunky 10 fingers and any kind of more or less resonating wooden instrument 😉. (at least as far as we have good or even better and better samplelibraries available)

So I would not expect to be called a "performer" much more than an modern industrial farmer would call himself still a "cowboy" while nearly all of his procedures are since many years digitally automated.But of course as this guy is still or even more a good and often very intelligent "Farrmer" I do think likewise that we are musicians and of course a apretty interesting and potential kind of musicians.

Because we also know that higher technical potential does not mean at all, that neither the modern (non Cowboy-)Farmer nor the digital muscian has less or even anything more at all to do.

I personally do have the impression that with the possibilities which opens with using highend Samplelibraries the challenges to explore the musically reasonable become ore and more ambitious and the work to spend to achieve what is reasonable possible even became still more and more time consuming.

And the audience ?

- If you are lucky you dont have to care at all what any audiance think about what you want to do.

- if you depend on someone who pay for, Ok, than he is your audience.

However 'I do have some doubts that we are pretty close to become very popular in larger parts of the society with programming music since there seem to be so little reason to be interested in any more ambitious kind of music. Those who are interested will either find what they are looking for ... online

or just realise their ideas for themself with VSL 😃 however they might think about the term "performer"  . 

@fahl5 said:

Sorry imho the "performance" of music is one of the more important problems of music in history: the necessity to realise so much decisions nearly in the same time the result was heard.

It is a problem, because it reduces in many aspects the precision and possible reflection that might improve those musical decisions "made in a hurry" in a live-performance. What since more than 100 years made it so attractiv to develop so much technics to record and reproduce music always in order to improve those musical decisions.

And yes as far as we use sample libraries we have "solved" that "problem" in the currently presumably most detailed possible way. and to be honest that makes me look with more and more commiseration for those who nowaday still try to realise music with their chunky 10 fingers and any kind of more or less resonating wooden instrument 😉. (at least as far as we have good or even better and better samplelibraries available)

So I would not expect to be called a "performer" much more than an modern industrial farmer would call himself still a "cowboy" while nearly all of his procedures are since many years digitally automated.But of course as this guy is still or even more a good and often very intelligent "Farrmer" I do think likewise that we are musicians and of course a apretty interesting and potential kind of musicians.

Because we also know that higher technical potential does not mean at all, that neither the modern (non Cowboy-)Farmer nor the digital muscian has less or even anything more at all to do.

I personally do have the impression that with the possibilities which opens with using highend Samplelibraries the challenges to explore the musically reasonable become ore and more ambitious and the work to spend to achieve what is reasonable possible even became still more and more time consuming.

And the audience ?

- If you are lucky you dont have to care at all what any audiance think about what you want to do.

- if you depend on someone who pay for, Ok, than he is your audience.

However 'I do have some doubts that we are pretty close to become very popular in larger parts of the society with programming music since there seem to be so little reason to be interested in any more ambitious kind of music. Those who are interested will either find what they are looking for ... online

or just realise their ideas for themself with VSL 😃 however they might think about the term "performer"  . 

As usual fahl5 you are mixing apple with oranges. The question here was, are we performers? Nothing to do with the quality of a live performance vs a thought out recording. Performing is a totaly seperate art and a very important tradition in which the artist has that direct communication with the public, even though the performance might not always be best interpretation, and rarely a concert musician will chose a live performance for a CD. But 2 different things and equally imporant. We are not robots, we need this human interaction as well in music.

@Guy Bacos said:

As usual fahl5 you are mixing apple with oranges. The question here was, are we performers? Nothing to do with the quality of performance vs a thought out recording. Performing is a seperate art, which is also very important, but rarely a concert musician will chose a live performance for a CD. 

Already your beginning with "As usual" does not sound like a very subject based answer on a conrete post for a concrete thread. It is a pitty. Please.do not waste our time with such general attitudes.

If the thread asks "Are we "performers" than the question is, how this term relates to what we are doing with samplelibraries If you are seriously interested to discuss that question substancially, I am sure you will better understand my contribution to that discussion.

I think fahl has a point about micro-management of a (midi) performance and all attendant advantages such as appropriate reflection on interpretation and so on, but for me he is mistaken in feeling sorry for players being involved in performance. Samples for me are only a mock-up (sorry gents) because they are well, samples, of real instruments. The infusion of feeling from musicians will only enhance your composition and may even bring out more latent expression. There is also a restriction creatively at present with samples that hinder more advanced instrumental techniques and scoring, thus limiting creativity for those of us who can't or may never get a live performance.

As a result, I find it hard to take samples seriously as a means of expression in their own right (although I acknowledge that in the right hands, they can be expressive and realistic - I find no irony here) - to me they are a tool that provides a aural calling card, even if that card is never picked up, listened to and the number rang.

Are we performers? I suppose we are, but as fahl intimated, the job description is new and more complicated, but at heart still the same. At the very least, we interpret our work and render it to a kind of idealised but (at present imo) rather sterile performance. They do however provide us with a recording and in this day and age, with so much music, that is probably the most important criteria to keep a work viable.

One thing we have to be very careful is not to generalize anything.

There are outstanding live performances as well as bad ones, there are great recordings as well as horrible ones, there are terrific performers and orchestras as well as mediocre ones, there are truly great mock ups as well as ones that suck, in some cases, there are live performances that have been magical and that was also because of the interaction with the public, in other cases, it's the thought out process, detailed research and all you want, to get the most of a work in a recording. Sometimes the latter one can be detrimental because it lacked spontaneity, too inteluctual, even the great Pollini in his older Chopin's recording are played too straight, lack of freedom, too much thinking, and he'll be the first to admit to this. The point is, no matter what tool, technique, resource etc you are using, whether it's live, recordings or computers, it comes down to the craftmanship, the expression and what you have to say. 

And each of us will respond emotionally to different stimuli. For example, I prefer a more subtle amount of expression (variation in dynamics and timing) within a phrase. I personally am easily destracted with more extravagant expression. On the other hand, a friend of mine is always telling me I need to add more expression into my midi-performances. He finds my expression too lifeless. 

These types of differences are common. One person loves the intellectual nature of Bach, another likes the grand gestures of Wagner. And on it goes.

So I do not believe that we can determine "are we performers" based on any particular characteristic of the music itself. But performance is certainly one of the many elements that goes into what we do. But we are more than that, much more.

@Paul McGraw said:

And each of us will respond emotionally to different stimuli. For example, I prefer a more subtle amount of expression (variation in dynamics and timing) within a phrase. I personally am easily destracted with more extravagant expression. On the other hand, a friend of mine is always telling me I need to add more expression into my midi-performances. He finds my expression too lifeless. 

These types of differences are common. One person loves the intellectual nature of Bach, another likes the grand gestures of Wagner. And on it goes.

So I do not believe that we can determine "are we performers" based on any particular characteristic of the music itself. But performance is certainly one of the many elements that goes into what we do. But we are more than that, much more.

Yes, those are good points. We are all different, we all have different personalities, qualities and sensitivity, and this is what makes us humans and not machines. I'll add to that, the beauty of interpretations is that not 2 performances will sound alike nor should they, they should reflect your personality as well as respect the authors inttentions. Both can be managed in a balanced way. If we were to all study exactly the exact intetention of the composer and all play it the same way, music would be boring. In fact, some of the greatest performers have played passages contrary to the composer's intention, and I'm fine with that, as long as it's tastefuly done and within reason. 

"Samples for me are only a mock-up (sorry gents) because they are well, samples, of real instruments. The infusion of feeling from musicians will only enhance your composition" - mh7635

But there is feeling in the samples.  You don't hear that? 

"There is also a restriction creatively at present with samples that hinder more advanced instrumental techniques and scoring, thus limiting creativity for those of us who can't or may never get a live performance."  mh7635

So the point you are making is you have exhausted the possibilities of the articulations recorded so far?   

"As a result, I find it hard to take samples seriously as a means of expression in their own right " - mh7635

I totally disagree and now have the same reaction Ive had before to people who come on this Forum - paradoxically - to state that samples are inferior or can't be taken "seriously."   Inferior to what?  A high school band?  The New York Philharmonic?  VSL samples are superior to orchestral sounds that 99% of composers have available to them. 

I guess I should address the idea of mh7635 that sample performance is nothing but a "mockup" which means a temporary unsatisfactory substitute for live performances -

I had a song-cycle performed by the Reno Chamber Orchestra which is a well regarded American orchestra, very difficult to get your music played by them (I probably can't now with their new conductor) and it was recorded with a very high quality live recording. But I would never release that recording because the performance is nowhere near as good as the VSL performance I later did with the same soloist -

Earth and Paradise

So I wonder how that fits into the simple distinction of "live" vs. "mockup" with "mockup" always being just a substitute and never acceptable as a "SERIOUS" version of some music. In this case the sampled version was superior in every way. But it is still not 'SERIOUS" because it used samples ?

@William said:

I guess I should address  the idea of mh7635 that sample performance is nothing but  a "mockup" which means a temporary unsatisfactory substitute for live performances -

I had a song-cycle performed by the Reno Chamber Orchestra which is a well regarded American orchestra, very difficult to get your music played by them (I probably can't now with their new conductor) and it was recorded with a very high quality live recording.  But I would never release that recording because the performance is nowhere near as good as the VSL performance I later did with the same soloist -

Earth and Paradise   

So I wonder how that fits into the simple distinction of "live" vs. "mockup" with "mockup" always being just a substitute and never acceptable as a "SERIOUS" version of some music. In this case the sampled version was superior in every way.  But it is still not 'SERIOUS" because it used samples ? 

I love "Earth and Paradise" and did so from the first time I heard it. And I even bought the CD. It would be hard to argue that the quality of "Earth and Paradise" is diminished by the use of samples. I can't imagine it being better performed live. 

For me, I would really love to have a live performance of my work, and I create scores and parts just in case that happens. I am in the process of putting my music on IMSLP and also on JW MyScore in the hopes that some orchestra might perform it.

But I am so glad we have samples, so I can hear my music now, while I'm alive. Silly perhaps, but still I think that is why most of us use samples to create music. Some like William and Guy are so good that their midi-performance is better than what most live orchestras can achieve.

I would say that we are something between performers and conductors; architects of performances with a greater degree of influence over such than a conductor, who will orally attempt to elicit from performers his  conception of a work, whereas we shape the actual sound electronically. On the other hand, a conductor is able to radically alter the performance of an instrumentalist (or family group) through his instruction, when we are only able to tweak already performed samples. Perhaps the term that would best describe our post facto manipulations of sans-context performed samples into meaningful interpretations of a work, is 'Meta-Performers'.

The closest we could come to compare the two modes of interpretation I believe would be through solo instrumental music. For example, how different we'd view our own physical performance of our new -say- piano suite, to our programming the same using samples.

And then of course it is all down to talent and ability. A computer orchestral simulation is by design an agglomeration of discreet samples (much as any object is an agglomeration of molecules), as opposed to a continuous musical edifice as created by a real orchestra. The art lies in masking the fragmented nature of  computer aided realization through DAW wizardry. How much will it sound like a unified performance, or how much will it sound like aural Lego.

Thanks Paul, and I think that is true Errikos,  but speaking of aural Lego, the performance of various middling string players who hide behind large numbers in their section and play grossly out of tune or devoid of expression as they recite in nearly comatose fashion for the 900th time Beethoven's Eroica viola part - for example - could be just as well described as aural Lego. 

I have heard that kind of playing, in fact, because I sat quite near the viola section in many orchestral performances. Not to single out violas, an instrument I love, but they are representative.   Everyone thinks live performance is the Holy Grail and they are just slogging away in the dregs of music with samples - that is grossly wrong.  Especially right now with VSL which has crossed a line into complexity of expression that makes it capable of almost any music.   Right now I am working on a feature film score using Dimension strings and am constantly excited by the total control over expressive sound this phenomenal library has created. 

William,

But there is feeling in the samples.  You don't hear that? ...WK

Jeez William of course I hear feeling in samples, I'm not deaf you know..😶.  I wouldn't mind, but if you re-read my post you will see that I even acknowledge they can be expressive and realistic!!!!!!!!

"So the point you are making is you have exhausted the possibilities of the articulations recorded so far?"  

No. 

"As a result, I find it hard to take samples seriously as a means of expression in their own right " - mh7635

I totally disagree and now have the same reaction Ive had before to people who come on this Forum - paradoxically - to state that samples are inferior or can't be taken "seriously."   Inferior to what?  A high school band?  The New York Philharmonic?  VSL samples are superior to orchestral sounds that 99% of composers have available to them...WK

Another assumption I'm afraid. I am NOT questioning VSLs' quality - I deem their philosophy and product to be the best tool out there  especially for trained composers - rather, just the perceived concept that samples in general are better than the thing they are mimicking. For me, the fact that they are only a snapshot of real instruments is also their weakness when it comes to comparison with real fluid, moment to moment players and performances. Do I really, really, really have to say that samples are inferior to the NY Phil?...oh I just did. I don't think the guys at VSL will mind that!

So I wonder how that fits into the simple distinction of "live" vs. "mockup" with "mockup" always being just a substitute and never acceptable as a "SERIOUS" version of some music. In this case the sampled version was superior in every way.  But it is still not 'SERIOUS" because it used samples ? ..WK

OK, so you had a bad performance, it happens. Equally it could have been a great performance and recording, would you have still preferred a mock-up?  Perhaps I haven't made a particular distinction clear here as William seems to putting words into my mouth, so I will try again. I said..."in their own right".....and the reason is because they are aping something else, they have no individual aural identity like say a synth, they are as Errikos describes rather well, an aural lego brick, a building block and just like lego, although you can build in different colours and subtlety, the finished edifice is not  mistaken for the real thing.  OK, calm down, apologies, I used Errikos' analogy to fire a cheap shot, because, yes, samples can sound realistic - I repeat that I find no irony in this because of what is missing. There is realistic and then there is the real thing.

That said, I realise I am impinging on some deeply held beliefs in the validity of DAW/Notation software rendering and what having a performance/recording means to composers  (remember I am one of you too!) , but it seems as though some folks have lost a sense of what I perceive as the main goal. Just because we can't get performances of our work, does not necessarily mean to say we should accept facsimilies as the ideal. 'Write to and for the highest standards' might be a motto to employ in this regard and that means the NY Phil even if such an ideal is unattainable. That is my philosophy anyway, I know others will disagree and so be it. They too can write to the highest etc. and I am certainly not dismissing their creativity at all, in fact there is one composer who has posted in this forum, whose philosophy is almost entirely at odds with what I am advocating - Jerry Gerber - when I listen to his music, I am moved at times which does tend to contradict what I say.  Perhaps i should have said "I find it hard at times to take samples seriously......etc. "  But it is a fact that my ultimate view on this is coloured by my professional experience of real players along with my training and study and a keen awareness of what samples cannot provide.

Guy and Paul have touched on what really matters in all of this.  So perhaps now you may understand where I am coming from, It is not that (say) your piece William is not "serious", (and I might add, when I do listen to yours or any others work, I judge my reaction via the music, not the medium/recording) it is the fact that the rendering in my view, is doomed to fall short when one realises what is missing - the collective human dynamism, the sonic beauty of linear, individual and in-concert expression, fluid and ever changing real timbre, the natural bloom from a string section and even interpretation beyond the thinking of the composer - these traits are where the music and the art is (as well as the notes themselves) and where the composers expression is magnified, writ large to seduce any receptive listener.

Phew.

I am not arguing any more with you but you need to understand not everyone here is a yokel who just recorded some MIDI on his Casio keyboard.  I won't recite my experience, you can figure it out for yourself.

Since you feel samples are so inferior to live performers why are you here?  You must be slumming among the dregs of music, and would probably feel much more at home among the other peerless professionals you are used to, playing perfectly every note of your masterpieces with absolute musical expression which comes to them naturally and instantly as it does to every real  and SERIOUS musician, unlike scum like me who drudge away programming MIDI merely "aping'"actual music.  

Just a brief thought. Someone said: "solo painter or novelist creates his own work."

I like that. 

As a "Midi Composer" I have often considered myself simliar to a digital sculptor or animator. I've done some animation work and it feels like it uses a very similar brain process... going over a small detail repeatedly, smoothing it out, and trying to get the gesture / motion totally right. 

-Carl. 

Getting back to the original question... 

A performer is defined by the dictionary as "someone who entertains an audience." Getting to a common definition of the word perform is the logical starting point.

The definition doesnt say by what methods or means one entertains. If you suck and noone is entertained, did you really perform, or were you a fake performer?

At some point in history, all instuments did not exist. Except one could argue that drums were probably the first instrument to accompany a human voice.

Let's say, pounding on a hollow log was the first drum, for sake of arguement. Was it a fake drum when someone came up with the idea of putting rawhide on the log to make it louder? Was it fake if they hollowed out a log using tools instead of finding one that way in the woods? How about modern day drums? Are they "fake" drums? Is it fake to use a wooden stick and not the femur of an animal as a mallet?

I beleive we are performing every second we are creating and playing our DAW. Our VST's and keyboard/mouse/computers are our instruments. They happen to make all kinds of sounds when we organize them in to patterns so others are entertained. Maybe we dont do that in realtime, but the performance still happened. It was just captured to media so the audience could continue to be entertained. 

All musicains are technical experts on the instrument of choice. They are manipulating, with aquired skill, the capabilites of that instrument to create a sonic experience for the entertainment of others. How is that any different than someone manipulating the technical abilites of a DAW and VST's to create a sonic picture?

It boils down to the purest of definition for the term "performance". Until we agree on that, there will be no agreement on what it means to be a performer.

Having said all that, I beleive yes, we are always performing if someone eventually hears our work. That someone might just be you alone, listening to the music you created. So, even if it is to an imaginary audience during the initial performance...that later becomes real by any medium we choose to offer our work though...it is a performance...and therefore we are by definition, performers.