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  4. Updated: Side by side comparison using 2 different violins
  • A
    A

    Just heard this and read the concern of the sound and wanted to add my two cents worth. 

    Many people have an opinion of variouos types of music and also have preferences. I thought the violin sounded perfect for the piece. it sounds very balanced in the style it was rendered. I love VSL instruments and try to use them even in non-classical music because they are so realistic. 

    Perhaps the critic tends to like more "gypsy style" violin, or something with a LOT of expression. I have 8-10 different violin libraries and the producers can't make all libraries, everything for everybody.  They have a goal in mind, and sample towards that goal. 

    One of my libraries has a weepy sound and would be good for that kind of music. Another is more expressive, and would produce a sound more like a Hungarian Rhapsodie, Another is perfect for Gypsy violin. And another, and another, and...

    I'm guessing the critics have their favorite genre, their favorite "violin sound" and don't appreciate other types of music and performances. 

    VSL's goal was to come up with the biggest, the best, the most complete, and  the most natural sounding "entire orchetra library".  Had they done "one offs" of each peice in an orchestra, it wouldn't sound natural when combined.  

    I wouldn't worry about it. Did they offer a piece of their music in the same style, with what they believe to be a more realistic rendition??? 
  • AcclarionA
    AcclarionA
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    Hi Arbian33,

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts; they're spot on. It's funny, because since this thread started, I did decide to try a different violin library that I just purchased, simply for my own interest. I'm going to share the new version of this piece below, alongside the original VSL version. I would welcome thoughts on which version people prefer, especially with regard to the sonic characteristics of the violin (but of course, comments on the actual music are always welcome!)

    Can I Dream? (new version)

    Can I Dream? (original version)

    Look forward to hearing your thoughts!

    Dave
  • A
    A

    I like both pieces equally well.

    Because the piece starts with the piano, and the piano is present throughout the song, It appears to me to be a piano piece with violin and clarinet accompaniment. Yet this piece gives room for the accompanists to add lots of character to the song. In a "live" situation, performance of this, accross several venues, might require hiring local chamber orchestra musicians.  As such, it will be performed a little differently, every time. 

    That doesn't mean performance no. X is better than performance no. Z because a few people like performer X and his/her favorite violin more than performer Z and their favorite instrument. It's all subjective.  Now, had this been a violin solo piece, with piano and clarinet accompaniment, the rules (or lack thereof) would be different. I'd expect the violin to play more expressively, as the soloist. 

    Interpretation of the sheet music will be different between the performing musicians also. So, who's to say what should be changed.

    I love the sound of the violin and the music, that's often played on media when portraying a romantic dinner at a quaint resaraunt, and a violinist wandering from table to table setting the mood. But it would change this song, to another genre, or possibly ruin it. 

    Imagine if Itzhak Perlman, Benny Goodman, and Little Richard competed for the limelight on a song.  Utter cacophony on a grand scale for many reasons. Yet they are all great musicians in their own right.  This might actually become someone's all time favorite, but not everybody's..

    There's a time and place for everything, This is your song, your place, and your time, and therefore deserves merit. I'd take the criticisms of you library choices as motivation to seek choices and as inspiration to continue to improve , 

    But had you added a violin and clarinet to a HipHop/Rap song, I'd have a problem with that...  :)
  • AcclarionA
    AcclarionA
    Thanks again, arbian33, for contributing your thoughts to this discussion. I think what really frustrated me in the beginning, was the reply from the other forum members that the violin sounds really fake. First, it would be easier to take if it was worded such as: "I feel the violin doesn't sound as authentic as it could, for example in the portamenti" or "I'm not too fond of the timbral characteristics of the violin you used" etc. Outright calling it "fake" just seems dismissive, and is not a substantive or constructive crticism. On some levels, if you really think about it, comments like these might be more a crticism of the library than the user, and I know if I were VSL, I'd be annoyed by such comments especially considering the great degree of skill, effort, and precision that went in to the library. But since, I, as a proud user of VSL am pleased with its libraries, I get equally annoyed when others imply that my taste is questionable. And you are right in that they never provide any examples of their own works to help me gauge the validity of their observations. On a lighter note, I'm thinking a fair number of rap songs have already included "fake" sounding violins and clarinets. Perhaps we should introduce Snoop Dogg to VSL to improve his future songs? Dave
  • W
    W

    If the idea is to compare the violins it cannot be done on this piece because of it being a trio.  EVery time one tries to hear the difference, the clarinet comes in.  So if you wish to compare the two violins you have to have just a total solo or perhaps a violin and piano.  Also on this mix the piano is very loud - not at all a normal accompaniment level - so that also makes the comparison next to impossible.  

    However it is a very good composition - I just don't think this is the way to compare the two violins. 
  • AcclarionA
    AcclarionA
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    @William said:

    If the idea is to compare the violins it cannot be done on this piece because of it being a trio.  EVery time one tries to hear the difference, the clarinet comes in.  So if you wish to compare the two violins you have to have just a total solo or perhaps a violin and piano.  Also on this mix the piano is very loud - not at all a normal accompaniment level - so that also makes the comparison next to impossible.  

    However it is a very good composition - I just don't think this is the way to compare the two violins. 

    Just to clarify, I envision the piano as an equal voice in a trio, not as it might more traditionally be treated, as an accompaniment to two solo instruments. In fact, my wife, a clarinetist, often is frustrated by how the piano sits low in a mix against the clarinet in many recordings of clarinet sonatas for example. It seems unnecessary to "telegraph" the piano's role as subservient to the solo instrument by reducing its volume significantly, if only because the ear can hear the timbral differences between the instruments, even if they're at a similar volume. The benefit to a louder piano part is that it better supports the solo instrument and helps connect the musical ideas between the two instruments...of course, this all depends on the individual piece in question. So, basically, all I'm trying to say is, the piano in this piece is not accompanying two solo instruments, but rather an equal voice engaging in a dialogue with clarinet and violin. Thanks for listening! Dave
  • W
    W

    yes in the trio that makes sense as it is a major part.  I meant as part of what you have converted this into - a comparison of the violins.  
  • J
    J

    Hi Dave,

    Pure criticism is always cheap and easy. It doesn't require great skilss to bring someones work down, but as you mentioned, bringing in a 'better' example to compare and to teach is quite something else and rarely (actually never) happens... I know how difficult it is to work with solo strings (VSL) and to have them sound as realistic as possible, but I guess it will never be easy, not with another library either. All sample libraries have been recorded in fragments and no matter how accurately and thought outh this happened, it will always be parts and pieces, small cuts of sound that we will have to COMpose to a musical phrase (recompose would be a better word here). Bringing together all these little puzzle snippets to a meaningful whole will always be the major challenge. As such that is not so difficult, but making them an organic entirity is a totally different matter. With thousands of small surgical tweaking operations we can try to mimic the human bow movements and the sound we're after at that moment, but still one way or another we will have to mask the samples as separate units with reverb, distance... Two more points of interest are the knowledge of the instrument and the way of playing it at a certain passage or articulation and the personal taste of how that instrument should (best) sound. There are so many different sorts of violins and playing technniques (already mentioned before in this topic), that it is impossible to please everybody's ear with one choice. That's why such criticism is worthless and discouraging. It is simply denying the effort of both the composer and the value of the VSL libraries.

    I've listened to many other libraries and they don't even come near to VSL, but that doesn't mean that the music produced with the other libraries would be inferior (and vice versa). Actually, it has rarely to do with the music itself but with the rendering, producing, mastering skills... And it is a fact, good music deserves a good recording to honour it. That's why we've chosen VSL...

    Both your recordings are equally good, no matter which violin you've used. (They both have their own striking characteristics.) But I find it a little riskys to experiment with too many libraries. There's always the danger of ending up in 'mastering' any of them in the long run.

    Jos
  • AcclarionA
    AcclarionA
    I agree with everything you wrote, Jos. I would suggest, however, that for me, it was fun to explore a different solo violin library as each library, beyond its sound, also offers a different approach to manipulating its samples. Sometimes, if we pigeonhole ourselves to one method of doing things, we might not discover that there's a more intuitive/efficient way of doing things that better suits the way we think. In this case, there were definitely work flow options that were worth exploring in the non VSL library, but I was also able to validate how pristine VSL's entire musical architecture is with regards to the quality of their samples, player, and production tools. Dave
  • W
    W

    I often notice how something sounds good with another library but I have completely adapted to the organization and controls of VSL which are very musical so I don't want to use another system and - maybe this is the most important aspect - the control you have with VSL goes down to the most basic elements of the musical expression.  This is probably due to the very logical, methodical approach to breaking down and sampling the articulations that VSL implemented. 

    But I don't mean to distract from the thread which I think should feature this excellent music more. 
  • J
    J
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    I do agree with William and could add this: the learning curve of VSL samples (mainly strings) is often steep enough and a long time effort because of its richness... So trying to adapt other libraries on the road is (to me anyway) slowing down the learning process, certainly for now! Maybe later, but I will have to be convinced of an added value of another library first. That might be different for you and other users, but let's say that I have the hands full with Vienna and want to make the best of it to my abilities and hopefully beyond.

    Right now I'm working on a unknown cello concerto (classical style) and I want to make the best of the solo cello, knowing that it will be (in my range) impossible to render a realistic solo instrument. But I'll only know by doing and there will be plenty of articulations that I've never used so far on that path...!

    😇 Jos
  • M
    M

    Hi Dave, I listened to both pieces. For me is the new version the winner. The legato is more fluide, more realistic in my ears. 
  • PaulP Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on