Thank you, WIlliam and Jos, for your comments.  Since the intial comment, two others have chimed in with similar sentiment, one suggesting the "Joshua Bell" violin (is Joshua available for hire? lol j/k)

Anyway, it's all very subjective, and I get how one can appreciate a certain timbral quality in an instrument and/or a certain level of reverb/eq, etc. that can make or break the perception of the piece to a listener.  At least they're all very complimentary of the music, which at the end of the day is what matters most.  

I will continue to work with the instruments I have and exploit their potential as best as I can going forward.

Take care,
Dave

'I will continue to work with the instruments I have and exploit their potential as best as I can going forward."

This is where VSL scores highly, even with instruments that are years old now. There are seemingly endless ways to interpret a line given the generosity of their articulations. I was drawn first and foremost to VSL all those years back because of their attention to musical details and I too am still finding out new ways. I am also coming around to Synchron too, mainly because of the dynamic range and a fondness for the VSL workflow, especially with an iPad.

Another good piece Dave BTW (though I prefer 'New Meaning'....😉 😉. I know you are joking about Joshua Bell, but that really is a terrific set of samples too.

@mh-7635 said:

Another good piece Dave BTW (though I prefer 'New Meaning'....😉 😉. I know you are joking about Joshua Bell, but that really is a terrific set of samples too.

Very different styles, obviously, but I'd guess you're one of the few that feels that way based on how few people ever comment on pieces like "New Meaning."  Definitely not music for mass consumption, unfortunately.

Dave

Hi Dave,

I like your piece overall, everything has already been said with regard to the rendition. 😃

I do use 99.99% of Vienna stuff (including mixing plug-ins). Negative comments about VSL surprise me whenever I hear them, please don't be discouraged by negative comments of who simply doesn't like VSL.

Nevertheles if you wish to experiment with something that has been sampled with a different technique/philosophy, that can only help in my opinion.......you'll end up with a more complete palette, you might have a different picture of pros and cons within each library or you will have just one more option for future renditions to the very least.

Best regards

Francesco

There are no sample libraries that are seriously competing with VSL "sampled with a different technique/philosophy"  because every sample library out there is an IMITATION OF VSL - at best.  If they want to do something really good. 

People do not understand what this company created - to them all sample libraries are the same, just different approaches, etc.   It is all the same, just how do you do this, that, etc. etc,. etc.

What you don't know is that there was nothing remotely resembling VSL prior to it.  They originated everything that current sample librairies imitate.  No CEO of other libraries will admit that, but it is the reality.  

@William said:

What you don't know is that there was nothing remotely resembling VSL prior to it.  They originated everything that current sample librairies imitate.  No CEO of other libraries will admit that, but it is the reality.  

I have had a second listen to your track, Dave: there is nothing wrong with it.

Please note that this is only my opinion:

Clarinet and Piano are performed perfectly, only from time to time the Violin sounds a bit less credible, only here and there, it is definitely well performed overall.

1) I normally stay away from solo strings, they are the most difficult thing to render.

2) Particularly if your compositional skills exceed your production skills please be patient with solo string renditions.

3) Please listen to this: Guy Bacos - Solo Violin, with this sample library (which you already own) you can do anything that you might do with Joshua Bell, or with David Oistrakh. 😇

4) Reverb always contributes to realism, I would personally bring the clarinet and the violin a bit more towards the center and just a bit closer to the listener.......I would also try to experiment with different IRs comparing your track to other recordings of similar music. Again this is just a matter of personal preference but I would try a smaller and/or brighter stage.

Please don't be discouraged and keep up the good work! 😊

@Francesco Pirrone said:

I have had a second listen to your track, Dave: there is nothing wrong with it.

Please note that this is only my opinion:

Clarinet and Piano are performed perfectly, only from time to time the Violin sounds a bit less credible, only here and there, it is definitely well performed overall.

1) I normally stay away from solo strings, they are the most difficult thing to render.

2) Particularly if your compositional skills exceed your production skills please be patient with solo string renditions.

3) Please listen to this: Guy Bacos - Solo Violin, with this sample library (which you already own) you can do anything that you might do with Joshua Bell, or with David Oistrakh. 😇

4) Reverb always contributes to realism, I would personally bring the clarinet and the violin a bit more towards the center and just a bit closer to the listener.......I would also try to experiment with different IRs comparing your track to other recordings of similar music. Again this is just a matter of personal preference but I would try a smaller and/or brighter stage.

Please don't be discouraged and keep up the good work! 😊

Hi Francesco,

Thanks so much for taking the time both to listen and to offer such helpful and constructive feedback.  Yes, it seems that with reference to #3 above, Guy Bacos has the Midas touch with regard to his use of VSL.  I noticed articulations though that I don't even have (only have the standard library, not the extended) nor do I use Vienna Suite.  That said, obviously, his expertise is light years beyond my own, and quite frankly, listening to his music only discourages me as I feel I won't get to that level of production finesse in this lifetime.

As for #4, thank you for these suggestions.  We'll definitely play around with things and see if we can't "heighten the realism."  That said, I am also inclined to (gasp!) consider adding other non-VSL libraries to my instrument list, for the reasons you cited above.

Cheers!

Dave

You are very welcome, Dave. I genuinely think that having a go at other libraries can only increase you love for VSL and you'll probably end up using VSL most of the time anyway. 😊

@Acclarion said:

That said, obviously, his expertise is light years beyond my own, and quite frankly, listening to his music only discourages me as I feel I won't get to that level of production finesse in this lifetime.

Francesco sorry if I sounded obnoxious - I agree with what you said actually!  You are right about solo strings and in general an insane amount of tweaking is needed to match what a good player does almost without thinking - especially dynamics and lack of droning tones which one always has with samples because they have to be recorded that way. However  I did think the violin sounded very good in this!   

@William said:

Francesco sorry if I sounded obnoxious - I agree with what you said actually!  You are right about solo strings and in general an insane amount of tweaking is needed to match what a good player does almost without thinking - especially dynamics and lack of droning tones which one always has with samples because they have to be recorded that way. However  I did think the violin sounded very good in this!   

Just heard this and read the concern of the sound and wanted to add my two cents worth. 

Many people have an opinion of variouos types of music and also have preferences. I thought the violin sounded perfect for the piece. it sounds very balanced in the style it was rendered. I love VSL instruments and try to use them even in non-classical music because they are so realistic. 

Perhaps the critic tends to like more "gypsy style" violin, or something with a LOT of expression. I have 8-10 different violin libraries and the producers can't make all libraries, everything for everybody.  They have a goal in mind, and sample towards that goal. 

One of my libraries has a weepy sound and would be good for that kind of music. Another is more expressive, and would produce a sound more like a Hungarian Rhapsodie, Another is perfect for Gypsy violin. And another, and another, and...

I'm guessing the critics have their favorite genre, their favorite "violin sound" and don't appreciate other types of music and performances. 

VSL's goal was to come up with the biggest, the best, the most complete, and  the most natural sounding "entire orchetra library".  Had they done "one offs" of each peice in an orchestra, it wouldn't sound natural when combined.  

I wouldn't worry about it. Did they offer a piece of their music in the same style, with what they believe to be a more realistic rendition??? 

Hi Arbian33,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts; they're spot on. It's funny, because since this thread started, I did decide to try a different violin library that I just purchased, simply for my own interest. I'm going to share the new version of this piece below, alongside the original VSL version. I would welcome thoughts on which version people prefer, especially with regard to the sonic characteristics of the violin (but of course, comments on the actual music are always welcome!)

Can I Dream? (new version)

Can I Dream? (original version)

Look forward to hearing your thoughts!

Dave

I like both pieces equally well.

Because the piece starts with the piano, and the piano is present throughout the song, It appears to me to be a piano piece with violin and clarinet accompaniment. Yet this piece gives room for the accompanists to add lots of character to the song. In a "live" situation, performance of this, accross several venues, might require hiring local chamber orchestra musicians.  As such, it will be performed a little differently, every time. 

That doesn't mean performance no. X is better than performance no. Z because a few people like performer X and his/her favorite violin more than performer Z and their favorite instrument. It's all subjective.  Now, had this been a violin solo piece, with piano and clarinet accompaniment, the rules (or lack thereof) would be different. I'd expect the violin to play more expressively, as the soloist. 

Interpretation of the sheet music will be different between the performing musicians also. So, who's to say what should be changed.

I love the sound of the violin and the music, that's often played on media when portraying a romantic dinner at a quaint resaraunt, and a violinist wandering from table to table setting the mood. But it would change this song, to another genre, or possibly ruin it. 

Imagine if Itzhak Perlman, Benny Goodman, and Little Richard competed for the limelight on a song.  Utter cacophony on a grand scale for many reasons. Yet they are all great musicians in their own right.  This might actually become someone's all time favorite, but not everybody's..

There's a time and place for everything, This is your song, your place, and your time, and therefore deserves merit. I'd take the criticisms of you library choices as motivation to seek choices and as inspiration to continue to improve , 

But had you added a violin and clarinet to a HipHop/Rap song, I'd have a problem with that...  :)

If the idea is to compare the violins it cannot be done on this piece because of it being a trio.  EVery time one tries to hear the difference, the clarinet comes in.  So if you wish to compare the two violins you have to have just a total solo or perhaps a violin and piano.  Also on this mix the piano is very loud - not at all a normal accompaniment level - so that also makes the comparison next to impossible.  

However it is a very good composition - I just don't think this is the way to compare the two violins. 

@William said:

If the idea is to compare the violins it cannot be done on this piece because of it being a trio.  EVery time one tries to hear the difference, the clarinet comes in.  So if you wish to compare the two violins you have to have just a total solo or perhaps a violin and piano.  Also on this mix the piano is very loud - not at all a normal accompaniment level - so that also makes the comparison next to impossible.  

However it is a very good composition - I just don't think this is the way to compare the two violins. 

yes in the trio that makes sense as it is a major part.  I meant as part of what you have converted this into - a comparison of the violins.  

Hi Dave,

Pure criticism is always cheap and easy. It doesn't require great skilss to bring someones work down, but as you mentioned, bringing in a 'better' example to compare and to teach is quite something else and rarely (actually never) happens... I know how difficult it is to work with solo strings (VSL) and to have them sound as realistic as possible, but I guess it will never be easy, not with another library either. All sample libraries have been recorded in fragments and no matter how accurately and thought outh this happened, it will always be parts and pieces, small cuts of sound that we will have to COMpose to a musical phrase (recompose would be a better word here). Bringing together all these little puzzle snippets to a meaningful whole will always be the major challenge. As such that is not so difficult, but making them an organic entirity is a totally different matter. With thousands of small surgical tweaking operations we can try to mimic the human bow movements and the sound we're after at that moment, but still one way or another we will have to mask the samples as separate units with reverb, distance... Two more points of interest are the knowledge of the instrument and the way of playing it at a certain passage or articulation and the personal taste of how that instrument should (best) sound. There are so many different sorts of violins and playing technniques (already mentioned before in this topic), that it is impossible to please everybody's ear with one choice. That's why such criticism is worthless and discouraging. It is simply denying the effort of both the composer and the value of the VSL libraries.

I've listened to many other libraries and they don't even come near to VSL, but that doesn't mean that the music produced with the other libraries would be inferior (and vice versa). Actually, it has rarely to do with the music itself but with the rendering, producing, mastering skills... And it is a fact, good music deserves a good recording to honour it. That's why we've chosen VSL...

Both your recordings are equally good, no matter which violin you've used. (They both have their own striking characteristics.) But I find it a little riskys to experiment with too many libraries. There's always the danger of ending up in 'mastering' any of them in the long run.

Jos