I am a huge Bernard Herrmann fan and I am appalled at how often his music is used but uncredited (The Artist, etc.) especially when it's not a work in public domain. One of my favorites is The Octopus from the soundtrack to Beneath the 12-Mile Reef BMG/RCA Victor 0707-2-RG. Everything he did was stellar.

But even I must admit that even the soundtrack from Vertigo (arguably his best work) could not exist without the legacy of Wagner's Tristan und Isolde and Rachmaninoff's Isle of the Dead (1909) and Symphony No. 2 (1906-07), and Ravel's Daphnis Et Chloé  -And that trickles down to every film composer who can now also lean a little on Ligeti and Górecki. I have yet to hear film music that does not have some Classical or Romantic DNA in it. -Unless it's one of those sine wave drone soundtracks. And I find that to be a cop-out.

Just like Fred Steiner so wisely seized upon Ravel's Daphnis Et Chloé: 2. Entrance of Daphnis and Chloe and 11. Invocation to Pan by the Nymphs and the Prayer of Daphnis for his work on Star Trek. Great stuff that worked with the genre.

Basically, John Williams owes debts directly Rachmaninoff, Vaughan Williams, Ravel, and Holst. All sci-fi film composers have been touched by Holst. And all of this debt to Holst would not have been possible without Rachmaninoff's 2-minute Intermezzo from the opera Aleko that was written in 1892; and the absolute gold standard of Dies irae expanded to it's maximum possible effect in Isle of the Dead which was written in 1909.

It's pretty much impossible not to have something sound like something else. I suppose the trick is in not being so blatant or overly-seduved by the sheer beauty of what the greats have left us. This is something I struggle against.

We have all inherited such a treasure of great music and it is my hope that we will draw on the beautiful to write the new.

OP: Thank you for this lively discussion.

Anand,

I know where you are coming from and that's cool. Don't get me wrong, I too prefer the more traditional approach to scoring, but all you've just written is subjective and therefore nothing else can be said about it - opinions will always differ and there is no right or wrong, yes? That said, allow me to be subjective for a moment too, as you mentioned Batman. The Dark Knight scores are excellent in my view, brooding, portentious and dramatic. That 2 note minor third theme (oh allright then, motif 😛) is remarkably powerful in situ and is a wonderful psychological portrayal of Bales' brooding character. I feel the same way about the Superman theme (yes, theme this time!) too - another growing, dawning, pent -up feel which works very well for me.

 I can't make some of you erudite gentlemen (no irony, I mean that really - some very impressive soundtrack knowledge on show here), believe that a particular melody or cue by HZ is good and so despite Williams' insistence, I am not going to list all of the scores I deem good. I just don't think HZ deserves such a bad press, his aesthetic paradigm is different, that's all - the music is utility music and it does the job admirably, which neatly brings me on to Errikos' point about absolute music.

It seems to me that absolute music is where the greats mentioned in this thread have an added bonus in their work as  a lot of it does translate into music for musics' sake. Here is a thought on what might be a contributing factor to some film musics successful autonomy.

One of the benefits of not working to a click (like JW) when cueing is that one can think in terms of pure musical flow complete with rubato to enhance the expression and accomodate synch if needed. Working this way comes naturally with traditional training and being a performer on an instrument and is more likely to yield a satisfying feel because the linear flow will breathe more. That's not to say it can't be done as well under a click approach, it's just that the mental process of composing and the formulation of line and cadence is not being aggresively dictated to by a click and as a result the feel can sometimes be emancipated to a certain extent. Perhaps it is this approach to writing that partly contributes to the musics own sense of purpose away from any synch. Does that make sense, or was that a load of bullshit?..it makes sense to me anyways.. 

I'm sure we'd all agree with James' pitch that originality is hard to find and yet HZ did it!!!!!

Mike....the Devils' advocate) Hewer 😈

When you think of Raiders of the Lost Ark, you think of the Raiders March.

When you think of Star Wars you think of the Imperial March.

When you think of E.T. It's hard not to hear the theme in your head.

When you think of Patton you hear the echoing trumpets.

When you think of Psycho you hear the screeching violins.

When you think of Jaws...etc.

But when you think of Interstellar Ah... I think of ah... irritating drones and loud swaths of sound. 

When you think of Batman Begins.  Ah... Yeah... what is it? Arpeggiated synths with a block chord string progression?

When you think of Inception.  Ah... I think it's a chord progression that just gets louder and louder and now my head hurts.

I believe this all started back in the 90's when documentary filmmaking style was in vogue.  Themes and old school film scoring just doesn't work very well for that gritty, raw, what-you-see-is what-you-get style.  I think that was when the sound designs and bass drones became popular and now they are just used for everything.  Oh, that and beats.  Everything has to have a completely inapropriate dance beat to it now. 

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying everything on screen has to have a theme or melodies.  in fact, some of the aforementioned examples above are not themes or melodies at all.  But think of a movie (not sequels or reboots of older material)  made within the last twenty years that has a discernable music accompaniment and is memorable.  They just don't do that anymore and I think it's a shame.

And Errikos is right you don't need a big orchestra to make a good score.  I would add Carpenter's Halloween to his list.  Nor do you need a score at all, I've mentioned Goodfellas on another thread as an example of a montage of Pop songs.  The film has no original or even incidental music whatsoever it's just Pop songs strung together in a clever way.  

Also, I'm not necessarily bashing Zimmer.  As I mentioned in a previous post I liked the music to Rainman.  In fact when I think of that movie I think of the minimal in-your-own-little-world score Zimmer composed.  I also liked his score to the first Sherlock Holmes movie although it did kind of remind me of Morricone's score to The Untouchables.   

@jasensmith said:

And Errikos is right you don't need a big orchestra to make a good score. 

Yeah true, I and I would bet that if John Williams (or Hermann or any of the truly great masters) were just given a piano to score an entire film they would do an amazing job and we wont miss the orchestra. Most of the emotional content of great music is in the tonal "landscape", and orchestration merely colors it.   Ravels piano compositions are a case in point, and his orchestral music simple adds color. This is striking especially considering he was one of the greatest orchestrators. 

And recently Guy Bacos demonstated this so nicely with the piano reduction of his waltz. All the tonal content is already there in the notes! Color comes in later, if at all.

This will be my struggle all my life...how to write effectively for the piano. 

I know there are many ways of composing, but this is the way I would like to do it, not least because almost every classical composer thought this way. (To quote Ravel, compostion and orchestration are two different things....)

Well that came over as a little brusque William, especially after a bit of gentle humour in my post. I really don't know how to take your post, perhaps an emoticon or too would have helped - is there one for bludgeoning someone elses' opinion with one equally matched and no better?

Never mind, it does highlight how fatuous a subjective discussion like this can be at times, but then again, comparing eggs to apples is always going to be floored and mired as one opinion tries to overcome another.

I actually love Elfmans' score and theme to Batman and also think it is better than HZs'. Musically it plays on a lot of the cliches we expect in the genre, but it also reminds us why some of them took hold - they do work in good hands. I do find it more than a little ironic that he (Elfman) is being hailed here when he also needs an orchestrator. I'm sure HZ has been pilloried and sullied for similar reasons. Ah well no accounting for subjective taste eh, so long as it suits.

 The 2 Batman films  are obviously different films  and for me, the grittier realism of the Dark Knight benefits from a different, perhaps less fantastical approach....now obviously that is only my opinion and I am not trying to force it down anyones gullet, it isn't insulting, too forthright ,nor wrong (or even correct!) - it merely sets up a premise for more debate if anyone feels so inclined.

I might now start a thread entitled "Portentiousness vs Portentiousness (a semantic definition)".....just joking...😊😊

Mike-

I dont think a comparision between HZ and Elfman is all that subjective. One can objectively compare the scores and find that Elfman has more themes that relate to characters thoughtfuly than HZ. True Elfman needed an orchestrator but there is obviously more content in his music that enhances the movie experience much more than HZs batman. 

As I said before we would never know how D Knight would have sounded with Elfman or JW in place of HZ. We only can hear what was made after the fact and it will of course sound OK as millions of $$$ are put into the music production. So we have to compare different films to guess how good it could have been if others scored it,..

Another problem I have with HZ is the minimal variation across different movies. Its the same crap again and again and again, whethere its gladiator or pirates or DK or interstallar...the same ambient sounding music with taiko drums and spiccatos as Errikos describes. The one HZ score I recall which was very different was 'As good as it gets'. The score in this movie was quite effective. But maybe thats 'As good as HZ gets!'

Cheers

Mike, didn't mean to be brusque just get a little enthusiastic at times.  I guess that is the word.   

I get both Mike's and Bill's points. However Hans has been a one-trick pony for decades now (at least the films I've seen), and not a great pony at that. I'd say Elfman also has been a one-trick pony himself if it weren't for Good Will Hunting and Big Fish. And though he also has a lot of help according to quite a few high up sources, his style was original AND good enough to influence not merely everybody else for certain kinds of genres, but also John Williams (the Home Alone and Harry Potter soundtracks have their origins in Edward Scissorhands and the like, even if Williams' are superior by far and in every way).

Hans has been offered great opportunities to score films that allowed for a huge palette and range of expression and he offered none or very little - the scores of Inception, TRON II, Superman 5 or 6 or whatever it was are entirely interchangeable (tada-tidi-tada-tidi-tada-tidi-tada-tidi ad infinitum). I'm with Jasen on this, nothing memorable beyond the locomotion. Now obviously one can argue that almost every scene can be scored with almost any kind of music but the moment one claims this, discussion becomes pointless, plus, this one kind of scoring may 'hit the spot' on occasion...

I fail to hear any Daphnis & Chloe in Vertigo, but it's been a few years since I've seen that movie - I can't pick it in the suite I've got with Herrmann conducting. The rest of the influences are spot on. In addition, the influences of Debussy, Stravinsky and Prokofiev cannot be overstated in recent decades (up to 2000), as well as Ligeti's and, most of all, Holst for the fantasy/science fiction genres.

Hyperion released a CD with three movie piano concerti (two adapted from the soundtracks): Steiner, North, and Herrmann (yes, Hangover Square). For the cognoscenti...

JamesPDX that is an erudite list of influences I completely agree with and thanks for your insight on that.  

Holst and Vaughn Williams are huge in their influence upon current film music, even though few composers realize it.  Because they are receiving what these great composers did third or fourth or fifth hand via various influences of film composers who slavishly copied what Holst and VW created.  Especially harmonically and orchestrationally.  just order a copy of Vaughn Williams complete symphonies and you will learn everything and many levels beyond what any film composer ever did.  

The influences in Vertigo, Herrmann's greatest score are deliberate allusions to Wagner's Liebestod.  The reason for this is obvious, and yet Herrmann did not merely cut and paste Wagner, which is what Horner did to many classical composers he thought nobody watching the films would notice.

No prob William, I can understand passion - so much better than any other alternative. like I say, we actually agree musically about the topic in hand apart from me not being appalled by HZ and actually admiring him for his achievments.  Is your knowledge of classical music as erudite as your soundtrack knowledge?

EDIT.

Sorry, I just read your last post and it would seem the answer to my last question is in the affirmative. V.Williams' symphonies are to die for aren't they. It is interesting that you cite English composers, do you have a penchant for this sceptred Isles composers? I love exploring American composers and am getting to grips with Christopher Rouse at present, brilliant.  So much music, so little time...

Annand,

Cant' argue with you much there, but you still got a little subjective in a sentence advocating objectivity  - I mean, does more musical technical manouvering enhance a film? Some might say so, others maybe not. Remember, I am on your side here though, I'm just being picky and harking back to the previous posts. I'm not the internets objective/subjective Police and people will write what they want and quite right within reason, it is just fun to point these things out occassionally.😈

The accusation that HZ does the same thing over and over is perhaps reasonable, but here's a thought. He is hired by producers and directors and if they keep asking him, well you get what you are prepared to pay for. His style is recognised and pigeon-holed just like everybody else and available for hire. Although I'm pretty sure he appraoaches every project with a fresh outlook because he would have to, he may well rely on previous successful technicalities in cueing to get him through now and again. That is only natural, one writes according to ones' strengths (and what is expected of one too) and so I will pose a question and then dive for cover with my hard hat - is it valid to criticise natural inclinations as a weakness, especially when we are talking about a highly successful man?  (answers on a postcard please....😕)

Errikos,

Well I guess you just read above. You beat me to the one trick pony thing, quite right though in my view too. I never put together JWs' HP and Elfmans ES, but yeah, why not. I remember the advertising industry - being as creatively parasitical as it tends to be -wanting nothing other than Scissorhand rip-offs for years after the release of the film.

You know, just the mention of Daphnis and Chloe sends me into  a scherzando of helpless inadequacies, so please can we all refrain from citing one of the greatest works in our art please......😢......I thank you.

The Herrmann tie-in to Ravel's Daphnis Et Chloé was an editing mistake on my part. My post was too long and I cut it down without moving a comma. Sorry about that. And yes, Herrmann's tie to Wagner for Vertigo was deliberate but it was done with such brevity and skill to make it all fit into a five-minute window that it's astonishing.

For the rest, I'd agree that too much minor-third dih-dih-dah-dah-dih-dih-dah-dah-dih-dih-dah-dah becomes noticeable when you "ostinato it" across an entire series. In Vertigo, Herrmann makes it work with a single repeating harp note in "Scotty Tails Madeleine" –it works because there's music under it that matches the scene. It's one of my favorite cues.

And what's great about JW is that his scores are only in our faces when he wants them to be. I think the CDs to the original trilogy of Star Wars movies are great because I realize, "Oh, I don't remember hearing that, wow..." –It's Holst's Mars and Neptune and Rachmaninoff's Second Symphony, but JW's doing something original with those composers, and I can hear that he's making a lot of music. Also, the exit music for Empire is so gorgeous that at I must have just given him a pass at some point. Maybe it was an amalgam of all his works, including the heartbreak-score of Schindler's List (getting Itzhak Perlman to play the top melody can't hurt, either.)

Anyway, I love this discussion. This is what makes the internet great, my friends.

Has anyone heard Anatoly Lyadov's The Enchanted Lake ? -This guy was one of "The Might Handful" ...

Dang James, you said the 'D&C' words again.

More erudition on show I see, I'd better start brushing up a bit. BTW what the hell is wrong with a minor 3rd ostinato, I mean it's all the rage these days , surley hundreds of thousands of composers computers can't be wrong............

That is funny you mentioned not only Vertigo my favorite film score but also Enchanted Lake - that is such a great piece I had to order a copy of the score.  It is a fantastic piece of Impressionism before the Impressionism of Debussy and Ravel was famous.  It is a piece of music that creates a quiet mysterious state of mind rather than a conflict that has to be resolved like 99% of the other music at the time.  Liadov didn't seem to have a large output but that is a unique work.    

Lyadov was actually very gifted but notorious for lazyness. In fact, he was Diaghilev's pick for The Firebird, but the entrepreneur got tired of waiting through so many postponements and then somebody mentioned the Fireworks to him (bless his soul).

Mike: Same recognizable commercial style is one thing, same music exactly is another. Yes, I credit Elfman for the entire jingly-tingly-percussion/celeste for the main themes/impish rhythms school of soundtracks.

Bill: I happily purchased a heavily discounted EMI 'Complete Vaughn-Williams symphomies' about 15 years ago, and enjoy them on the odd occasion. Great composer, although I think his influence on soundtracks outside of the UK is based on influences he adopted during his European sojourn. I would pick Walton as wielding a bigger international influence in soundtracks respect, although I don't pretend to be an expert in this regard. As to VW, have a listen to a beautiful but less known work - Flos Campi, curiously written for solo viola, choir and orchestra. The second movement of his piano concerto is also a favourite haunt of mine.

I also believe that we lean a little too much on John Williams for his (admittedly true) influences. He is his own composer - except where Spielberg was too fond of the temp tracks - one of the few directors who know music (Holst's ghost is prevalent for this reason), but his natural pulses and rhythms are better than Holst's as well as the obvious American influences (Copland, Bernstein, etc.). I find that he imitates Mahler a lot more often than Rachmaninov (at least from the mid-'70s onwards), as Williams and the Russian are vastly different people. One is full of positivity, the other clangs death knells with every work; one is a supreme melodist, the other composed the main theme to Schindler's List... Like day and night in fact.

Now wait a minute Errikos - Rachmaninoff wrote Isle fo the Dead and was obsessed with Dies Irae.  

Also he is about as gloomy and dark a Russian Romantic as you could find.  So who is the sunny one? JW with Schindler's List or Rachmaninoff.  I don't get that last statement...

Obviously Rachmaninov is the gloomy one (I played around with the order there a little); Williams composed Schindler's List on very specific instructions and went against his Indiana Jones grain, but as a consummate professional he did a great job.

Dont you think JW drew a lot from Prokofiev? Somehow I think of JW more when I hear Prokofiev than when I hear Holst.

But again as you say, Williams is his own composer despite borrowing from a range of classical composers. His positivism is quite clear. Even it was the most melancholic score like Schindlers list there is a tinge of hope somewhere. As I heard him say in an interview...he likes movies that 'dont take themselves too seriously'.

@mh-7635 said:

Dang James, you said the 'D&C' words again.

More erudition on show I see, I'd better start brushing up a bit. BTW what the hell is wrong with a minor 3rd ostinato, I mean it's all the rage these days , surley hundreds of thousands of composers computers can't be wrong............

Ha ha, sorry! 😝 I've just been collecting and listening for a really long time. It comes and hopefully stays as you get older. I'd trade all that knowledge in a second to be able to sight-read well.

I'm not the biggest Ravel fan, but the (piano version) of Sonatine: III. Animé is just so gorgeous as is three very specific parts of D & C: Scene 1: Parts 1, 2, and 11.

Nah, minor third ostinatos are fine! Just don't use the same one at the same tempo on every film you land.

That being said, I don't begrudge anyone that can break-in and make a living in the industry. But I do expect to hear music that is objectively better than that written by anyone who's on the outside. It's Hollywood mixed with the music biz. 🤔

Here's the best ostinato I've ever heard. It's in fives. It was written in 1909: