@William said:

I have heard people say that John Williams stole this or that, but there is a HUGE difference - his main themes were completely original and totally identifiable as his own music.  There is no classical composer who created Star Wars or Indiana Jones or Schindler's List or Superman melodies  and then John Williams just disgusied them - those are pure John Williams and his own very original style. 

To the person who wrote this post - I have a large collection of Erich Wolfgang Korngold including rare LP records as well as CDs.  He is my favorite film composer along with Bernard Herrmann.  I have heard and studied all of his music and love it.  His Die Tote Stadt is one of the greatest operas of the 20th century. His Sinfonietta, the scores for Robin Hood,  Elizabeth and Essex,  many others are masterpieces.  But NEVER ONCE did I think John Williams simply ripped off King's Row - which I have several recordings of - to compose Star Wars.  That is absurd.  There is a huge difference between mere tonal and motific similarities in a composer who is DELIBERATELY trying give a feel like Korngold - which Williams was doing on Star Wars in order to create that Romantic quality - and someone who really did rip off every classical composer he could get his grubby mitts on.   John Williams did not do that - he created original themes and style of his own.  

This is a very interesting thread.  I don't have too much to add except to say that when I was in college it was poplular to accuse JW of plagarism and point out all the various themes and such that he "stole".  So for a long time that shaped my opinion of him.  However some years later when I decided to think for myself I came across his concert music and realized immediately that his music is his music.  

@William I also love Korngold and Hermann.  I appreciate other movie composers of that era like Waxman and Rozsa too.   

@winknotes_282 said:

This is a very interesting thread.  I don't have too much to add except to say that when I was in college it was poplular to accuse JW of plagarism and point out all the various themes and such that he "stole".  So for a long time that shaped my opinion of him.  However some years later when I decided to think for myself I came across his concert music and realized immediately that his music is his music.  

@William I also love Korngold and Hermann.  I appreciate other movie composers of that era like Waxman and Rozsa too.   

I was thinking, its not easy to "steal" like Williams. If someone argues that JW steals from other composers, my question to that person will be, can you do the same? write a score like the Star wars or E.T. on the piano, transcribe it by hand including every detail in orchestration? Only a handlful of film composers could do that in the history of film music. Let alone his concert works which reveal complete mastery of 20th century music including Jazz...he was a jazz pianist during the 50s for cryin out loud!

I realized that people say bad things about JW either out of pure jealosy or ignorance. Usually these are either jealous academics or ignorant fans of Zimmer. (ahhh I uttered the Z word....Ill stop here!)

 Anand

Quite true agitato although I'll not comment on Hans Zimmer :)

Another thought I've had over the years but never heard anyone talk about is that any similarity or references to classical repetoire only helps ground the music in terms of its familiarity.  So if they are concious borrowings or just instinctive they always serve the picture IMO and again bring some familiarity to the music.  

I'd again encourage people to listen to his concert music (especially the violin concerto) and I think you'll realize he's truly a masterful composer.  

Rozsa and Ben-hur ! One of my favorite films and scores ever. (but not for the religious part...sorry to some folks)

btw I wonder what people here thought of the soundtrack for 'The Artist'

I thought it was an really well crafted and fun score, full of the allusions to 20s and 30s hollowood music, jazz, swing and broadway. Ludovic Bource doesnt seem to have done much after that though.

Cheers

Anand

That was a great score and the most difficult kind to do - a silent movie.  There is nowhere to hide.  

It had one problem that caused a flap - in one scene the director used Scene d'amour from Vertigo - probably not the idea of the composer - and he hadn't gotten the rights for it!  Also it was out of place.  But the actual score for the film was fantastic.  

I love Herrman's writing.  Many of his contemporaries marveled at his exceptional skill in "shaping" his composition in just the right way to carry along the film - he was masterful at this.  The irony is, no one plagerized Herrman more than Herrman.  You can hear cues from any one of his films carried over into the next film - so blatantly that I'm surprised no one ever mentions it.  Borrow as he did however, there are few who could give the right shape to the mood as well as he.

yeah a lot of motifs from one Herrmann score to another are the same.  But on the other hand he kept adding new things - like the score to Taxi Driver his last had a very good jazzy sax solo and weird percussive sections, or the score for Sisters with analog synthesizer and glockenspiel!  He was incredibly inventive with orchestration, always experimenting. 

Have you checked out Hermann's Symphony #1?  I like it very much.  It is consistent with his movie music but not the same either.  

yes I have a copy of that!  Souvenir de voyage and "Echoes" for strings are two of his best works outside of film scoring. Echoes is very reminiscent of Vertigo though even darker, a beautiful work. 

Horner plagiarizes to an absurdly comical degree, but to say that he doesn't have his own personal voice is a bit too far.  Whatever he re-interprets, you can usually tell it is him.  If anything, I'm more bothered by how much he rehashes his material.  He has his own voice, unfortunately that voice is usually a consequence of his rather limited musical vocabulary, as his infamous Danger Motif reminds us of in all the movies he's worked on. 

Still, I don't see why you are comparing him to Herrmann of all people.  They have completely different styles and work in completely different generations with different scoring requirements.  Temp tracking was nowhere nearly as common for Herrmann's era as it was for Horner's.  Herrmann is obviously more skilled, but I don't know if he would have been able to even survive in the same scoring climate as Horner, given how notoriously picky he was.

Maybe I'm just being kind to Horner because I've encounted far more shameless and unoriginal plagiarizers than him.  Spot how many other's works have been ripped in this piece alone:

From Silvestri (Van Helsing) to Williams (Harry Potter) and then suddenly Herrmann (Cape Fear), and then ending with our dear lord and saviour Hans (PotC), of all people.  

It makes no sense to say Herrmann would not survive because it was AS A RESULT of his previous style that all the new filmmakers at the time (near the end of his career) wanted him - de Palma, Scorcese, etc.  In other words he was sought out precisely because of his style.  

If one goes back in time, and listens to prevalent scoring of others and then Herrmann, it is startling how original his style was, and how much he has influenced all film music since.  At the time of Citizen Kane his first score, almost all composers for cinema were writing in a Rachmaninoff - Tchaikovsky - Liszt late Romantic derived style.  Herrmann utterly contradicted that with a modern, completely different motific and harmonic approach, avoiding the leitmotif of Max Steiner, Dmitri Tiomkin, Erich Korngold etc. and creating the most original orchestration of any composer to this day.

That is a really sickening excerpt you posted.  It makes me think again of how there is an entire class of composers who AS A RULE create scores by re-assembling already composed music.  They do not actually compose, but re-compose.  (Or should I say de-compose?)

Anyway very interesting comments here.

You're right, Herrmann's music did become the basis for many temp tracks- but in his later works with the Hollywood Brats, he was only able to write the music that he did because he was so revered by them.  Scorsessee wanted something like Ghost and Mrs. Muir or Psycho for Taxi Driver, and was given something completely different.  And DePalma, who dared to temp track Obsession with Herrmann's music before presenting it to him, pissed off Herrmann so much that he demanded the temp music be removed after just being shown the opening titles!  And those are just the times that Herrmann successfully worked on a project, let us not forget the fights he got into with others from that generation like Kubrick on Lolita or Friedkin on the Exorcist.  Herrmann was very skilled, but also very lucky in his last years.  Horner never had the same luxury.  Reading about his work experience with Cameron on Aliens sounds like the type of thing that would drive most composers suicidal.  Of course, plenty of others had done better than Horner despite being put in even worse situations at the time (most notably Goldsmith), but I still don't think it's fair to compare him to Herrmann. 

Still, Horner is something of an arrogant scumbag who has said and done some below-the-belt things that I deem unforgivable, like that time he replaced Gabriel Yared on Troy and pooped out his usual terrible rehash album for the movie, and then publicly badmouthed Yared's music for being "too old-fashioned".  It's sort of terrible for me to say this, but his plane crash was pure karma at work.

That is an extremely offensive statement and I can't take part in a discussion in which people say things like that.  

Don't get the wrong idea, no way am I implying that Horner deserved such a tragic fate.  I would never wish that on anyone.  But, I do not believe such a punishment came out of the blue.  I always expected for him to get in serious trouble one day for either his plagiarisms or his hypocritical arrogance towards others, but not the way it turned out. 

Horner has made many questionable choices in his career and compostions, and that is what this thread is about.  There is no need to dwell on his untimely demise.

"but his plane crash was pure karma at work"

Fellow composers, if you don't want to die a terrible death, be nice to one another and no more spiccato minor 3rds please, otherwise millions of you will die, except the one who first used them. Remember, death or should I say, punishment, comes from somewhere that isn't blue.

JohnM2, that was a lousy thing to say, way below the belt. Horner might not have been an angel, but to suggest he deserved what he got is too far beyond the pale... I suppose the other poor people on the plane also deserved their fate did they? He died in an accident, not a retribution.

Please read what I said again in my second post, I did not wish for Horner to perish.  You are taking one line of what I said and extrapolating it.  Retribution or not, what happened was the result of Horner's own actions.  He was the sole pilot of that plane, he owned it and it was a small hobby of his.  Unfortunately, he was very much an amateur when it came to flying planes, and his enthusiasm from it came from his involvemet with the 3 Horsemen flight team towards the end of his career.  It is not far off to assume that it was Horner's inexperience in the plane that ultimately did him in. 

Now, you can continue grasping onto straws based on one sentence that I made, and continue to go into detial on a morbid topic that we are unfortunately now forced to go in-depth about because attention has been brought on it, or you can continue with the thread.  If my statement upsets you so much, send me a PM. 

I'm all for issuing pilot licences to everyone using minor-3rds-spiccato-strings-ostinati! Let them try and simulate flying as they do composition - they're used to auto-pilot settings!! I will supply the triumphant mixed choirs with apt irrelevant/non-sensical Latin proverbs and eastern solo vocalists and solo ethnic woodwind; you bring the Taikos. Let's make it an event!