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So, I'm trying to get a handle on how this legato system works, and what types of patches are intended for what types of articulations/speeds/etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2C6PEJRoxs
This is an UNLISTED link for the VSL community (please don't share).
Paul or others, any advice here? I'm not quite getting the desired result.
(the exerpt is the 2nd movement from Symphonie Fantastique)
Something's wrong with the legato, true. The patches are way too responsive and immediate - to the point of actually hardly being legato at all. The transitions feel far too short, so that the destination note jumps out very suddenly, resulting in some kind of a strict detache feel. To me it sounds as if that there was just too little of the transition portion between connected notes.
I'm very curious if perhaps the Synchron Player is meant to remedy this. Otherwise I feel it'd be best to revisit these patches - even if it meant that the final release of the full library needs to be pushed back even more. The tone itself is wonderful and there's a lot to love about these new strings. It would be a shame if their true potential never truly came to shine because of the odd legato behavior.
I originally felt the same way. I do wish there were one or two more "sloppy" legato transition styles, and a light portamento version, too. (Here's to hoping that VSL may be willing to add such transition styles in the future?)
However - after really sitting down with the legato this afternoon and giving it a serious open-minded chance, I am beginning to really like the legato styles that they have provided. In particular, I feel these legato styles provide *controllable* flexibility. I can see how this will be useful in a wide range of music, working more broadly than sloppy legato transitions would (even though I'd still wish for the sloppy/portamento options, too).
I just uploaded a legato demo in a separate post, too. Jimmy and Stephen, do you feel that example has the same problems that you are describing here?
Stephen, about your Berlioz example -
You might already agree that getting realism from sample libraries always requires trial and error between velocities, crossfades, and articulations, often using unexpected articulations with unexpected velocities to get the right nuance. For me personally, this is a game I'm willing to play, and I hope that Synchron Player makes it easier to play that game, or at least doesn't make it harder to use wrong articulations that surprisingly might work in unexpected places =)
In your clip, it looks like there's not much velocity xfade action going on. I bet it would open up a lot of possibilities to vary the velocity xfade more dramatically - to sculpt attack/development/decay of individual long notes, or over arcs of notes in one bow stroke. You probably already have tried various different legato articulations with trial and error, but my feeling is that if you just trial and error some more, it could work. One particular example that really sticks out to me is around 0:40 - 0:45. instead of using slurred legato followed by the long patch, I suspect it would sound better if you used normal or fast legato, followed by short sforzando articulations to mimic a detache with a slight attack. In some places, I think you might consider using other articulations than legato, too, where a more crunchy attack or a light release are needed - those details sometimes add more realism than a legato transition would, especially on beginning/ending notes of the phrases.
Re Suon -- yes to all that.
I had more time to mess today. Other thoughts:
I suspect when we get the legato tutorial video more questions will be answered.
Another thing I've been made aware of on the VI Control forums: to make the results feel more "legato", why not just simply adjust the attack slider a bit?
It actually works surprisingly well, and since we can do this per patch basis in the edit view, it's possible to "set and forget" for the legato patches without affecting the other articulations.
Velocity Xfade has a different behavior for Synchron! Velocity layers are removed when Vel Xfade is turned on!What? Why? Always?
Hi,
Yes, we are reducing the velocity layers for Performance Legatos when Velocity XFade is switched on. The second lowest layer and the second loudest layer is eliminated for the 8 velocity legatos (regular and no vibrato).
1) The amount of streaming samples is reduced.
2) You don't hear the difference, as Velocity Xfade works so remarkably well with the consistent velocity layer.
EDIT: 3) Of course those very helpful dynamic matrices (SOFT, MEDIUM and FULL Dynamic Range) each contain 4 Velocity Layers, and those are also available with Velocity XFade, The higher resolution you get with these matrices are great to work with!
Best,
Paul
Hi Paul,
I've got question about legatos - are you planning to make legato walkhthrough video? Because this is one thing that is bit hard to grasp. Seems simple, but is complex ;) Few patches, but many legato types, different vibratos etc. For me basic connection between notes is far from what I would like to get without tweaking. But manipulating attack and release during every transition is against that promise:
"With Synchron Strings I, we have achieved the ultimate in realism and expressiveness, while providing a new level of ease-of-use.
Play short notes, long notes with various attacks, legatos, scalable vibrato intensities and note repetitions with a minimal need to switch articulations, and by moving just one or two preconfigured controllers."
I've heard Herb's demo and it is very technical, at some points wow (how to achieve part from 1:37 - that repeating structure, awesome!), but at some a bit... too technical, not very musical. And it ommits fast melody lines. So, any walkhthrough on the horizon? :)
I've heard Herb's demo and it is very technical, at some points wow (how to achieve part from 1:37 - that repeating structure, awesome!), but at some a bit... too technical, not very musical. And it ommits fast melody lines. So, any walkhthrough on the horizon? 😊
Honestly, I do prefer Herb as soundengineer and developer of Highend Samplelibraries (as who he has done an incredible job since years) over Herb as compoer (improviser) of short demo sketches.
IMHO I am sure a good musician is able to do wonderful things with Synchron Strings and as we can and have to wait until the Library (and its player) is complete we also can and have to wait for good music done with that Library. 😉
IMHO I am sure a good musician is able to do wonderful things with Synchron Strings and as we can and have to wait until the Library (and its player) is complete we also can and have to wait for good music done with that Library. 😉
I'm also sure of that. The magic is in music, composition, orchestration, not in samples. But Synchron legato seems to be too sudden / slurs to loud and somehow they feel detached. Audio below has 3 legato types, standard, slow, slured, out of the box, same velocity etc. Maybe it's just me, but the connection is not that... connected (slow sounds the best imo).
https://soundcloud.com/piotr_katzpersky/legato-1/s-M8ZWD
I believe that there will be some magical legato knob in Synchron Player to manipulate those samples. So again to Paul: can you confrm that Player will have additional legato transition control? I'm not saying to hurry (take your time guys!), I just want more informations.
By the way, sorry to OP for derailing the thread, but subject is same, so I hope for forgivenes.
One other thing I want to add is that when properly used in the Synchron Player or in VIpro2, I think this library smashes all others AND that the legato has been reinvented and will sound amazingly real. I just don't know quite yet how to properly weild it.
New test!
To my ears, this is pretty damn convincing especially for a live, completely unedited performance... and once I were to add some processing, and riding some of the CCs a little bit, this is gonna rock.
Another thing I've been made aware of on the VI Control forums: to make the results feel more "legato", why not just simply adjust the attack slider a bit?
It actually works surprisingly well, and since we can do this per patch basis in the edit view, it's possible to "set and forget" for the legato patches without affecting the other articulations.
I don't know about Synchron but the other libraries work better if you increase the Release fader for legato no more then 10 units. You have to be very careful with attack because you start to loose definition and the notes become too blurred. Plus over attack gives the notes too much of a WAH! sound.
I don't know about Synchron but the other libraries work better if you increase the Release fader for legato no more then 10 units. You have to be very careful with attack because you start to loose definition and the notes become too blurred. Plus over attack gives the notes too much of a WAH! sound.
Sure, and I mean, it's not a magic bullet or anything ... but it at least makes the playing feel somewhat more pleasant. Bottom line however, the legato patches are problematic, simply moving a slider ultimately won't remedy that.
- no automation
Why would you ever gonna post something that you didn't even take the time to add some basic cc1? It is bound to sound like an organ, and so it does. I really don't see the point behind it, other than demonstrating how not to use a strings library. Sorry that the words are a little harsh, but you could have made it sound much better by spending just 20 seconds more on it.
- no automation
Why would you ever gonna post something that you didn't even take the time to add some basic cc1? It is bound to sound like an organ, and so it does. I really don't see the point behind it, other than demonstrating how not to use a strings library. Sorry that the words are a little harsh, but you could have made it sound much better by spending just 20 seconds more on it.
Hmm. Have you listened to much organ music? As this is a discussion about legato, the purpose is to [b]isolate[/b] the transitions between the notes, which are slurred together without a change in bow direction (thus, the groups of notes only have one “attack” sound on the first note of that group). To my knowledge, an organ cannot do that, the slurred passages merely being played with very slight note overlap to mask the instrument’s characteristic limitation. Give it a second listen and focus in on the timbral changes that take place between each grouping of notes. Until now, I’ve never heard any library of any orchestral instrument group do this convincingly without lots of automation, articulation switching, and library mixing.
As this is a discussion about legato, the purpose is to isolate the transitions between the notes, which are slurred together without a change in bow direction (thus, the groups of notes only have one “attack” sound on the first note of that group).
Got it. I missed that you wanted to showcase the transition only, not the preceding and following note. Convincing is not a word I would attribute to this example, but I am sure it is due to the lack of cc1 information, not the legato transitions themselves.
Have a happy new year everyone! See you in 2018.
