I just hope Guy will not decide to avoid comments, feedbacks, tips and suggestions on the next works that users will post on the forum, because it would be a bad loss for us.

Guy is a respected composer and member here, a consummate professional in every respect, and if he feels he has to apologise for anything (I haven't even followed the discussion in question since I only dicovered it through this thread and most posts have been deleted, so I am unaware of the specific alleged transgressions), of course he can do so at his volition, and it is none of my business.

Being a member myself from almost day one here - and one that has exhibited zen-like serenity while surrounded by formidable volcanic activity (and mild folly) through the years, and one who has barely raised the forum's mercury and only on occasion with some carefully chosen admonitions and timid suggestions, I would like to hereby offer an alternative viewpoint than those already in evidence, if I may.

Those familiar with my posts perhaps already suspect that I loathe political correctness with a primordial, unbridled passion. I foam at the mouth when I sense people's muscles tightening in conversation (in true Pavlovian fashion), when the "wrong" thing is mentioned, in the "wrong" way, whatever it is.

We are supposed to be the free spirits - a necessary quality that, among other things, allows us access to those realms inaccessible to others. Not corporate cogs of a machine that have to stipulate to pre-ordained 'codes' of conduct. In addition, I believe that true composers are not cry-babies  - "Mooooom!! This other boy said something NASTY to me, and hurt my over-sensitive feelings....*pout*"

Personally, I've exchanged ICBMs with fahl (and others), and have formed my own opinion; actually he was the one back in the day that was pleading with Dietz to expel me from the forum(!!), so he would be the first to disagree with what I assert here!

Be that as it may, I would never ask for an apology (irrespective of whether I would get it or not), either from him, or Gianna (memories...), or anybody else. I am even carrying a discussion right now with fahl in that other great thread. Have we really become so '21st century'? Maybe that's another reason why music today is going nowhere...

Like I said, I would never presume to dictate or expect of Guy or fahl, or anybody else how to behave . Have a look at how Haendel, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Berlioz, Wagner, Stravinsky, or Boulez (and most others - Herrmann!) carried themselves, back when society in general was much politer on the surface at least. Maybe it was part of the magic, and the concept of freedom which is rapidly being curtailed...

All this does not mean I am proposing that boorish, dockyard behaviour is the useful and optimal begaviour for educated people. However, when tempratures rise, I suggest we all be a little more tolerant, a little less thin-skinned, even if it involves personal, off-topic attacks (which I don't think I have personally ever employed, if memory serves). Bottom line: How much are you really offended and hurt?

Just my opinion.

The apologogy is not so much from Guy Bacos the VSL user and composer, but from Guy Bacos VSL demo maker. I'd like to be able to show the same class as Dietz, Paul and all the other moderators here, and I fell short, since I think I have a certain responsibilty, so wasn't too proud of that. 

The comments were very nice! 

And FabioA, of course I'll always keep commenting on the forum! 

PS I think Bartok would dig my music. :) 

"ICBM's"  (Errikos)

Irritable Conversational Boxing (re) Music.

(sorry Guy...just had to....:-)

"...Being a member myself from almost day one here - and one that has exhibited zen-like serenity while surrounded by formidable volcanic activity (and mild folly) through the years, and one who has barely raised the forum's mercury and only on occasion with some carefully chosen admonitions and timid suggestions..." - Errikos

A new height in irony has now been reached. 

@Guy Bacos said:

I'd like to apologize to the people of the forum and moderators regarding the couple of threads with the heated exchanges. Noone requested I apologize or said anything about it, I just want to let people know that this should not be a reflection of me, and I think people knows this, and although I firmly maintain my opinions, I should of quit after the point was made before the discussion got out of hand.

VSL has a classy forum and I'd like to be respectful to how it should be, also as a VSL demo maker.

Thanks,

Guy

Why are you apologizing, you didn't even post once to this thread?  Is it because you are the forum moderator? 

@jsg said:

 

Why are you apologizing, you didn't even post once to this thread?  Is it because you are the forum moderator? 

I'm not a mod here.

@jsg said:

Why are you apologizing, you didn't even post once to this thread? Is it because you are the forum moderator?

@jsg said:

Guy, I have no idea why you feel an apology is applicable. If you were the moderator it might make sense as the discussion degenerated into childish one-upsmanship. But you didn't participate!

Actually I was tangled in a couple of threads involving heated exchanges with fahl5, However, I should mention, I never resoted to personal attacks or cheap shots, so that's not the issue, but it did degenerate into a bit of a brawl, and I absolutely meant every word I said with no regrets, but as a VSL demo maker, sometimes I have to make sure I keep my tie on in a public forum. 😊 

I fear this thread is making it a bigger deal than it is, and perhaps I didn't need to apologize.

I'll have to take the "Learn When to Apologize 101" class.

@jsg said:

Guy, I have no idea why you feel an apology is applicable. If you were the moderator it might make sense as the discussion degenerated into childish one-upsmanship. But you didn't participate!

Actually I was tangled in a couple of threads involving heated exchanges with fahl5, However, I should mention, I never resoted to personal attacks or cheap shots, so that's not the issue, but it did degenerate into a bit of a brawl, and as a VSL demo maker, didn't thought it was a good image.

I fear this thread is making it a bigger deal than it is, and perhaps I didn't need to apologize.

I'll have to take the "Learn When to Apologize 101" class.

Well, I suppose it's better to apologize when not necessary than not to apologize when one should. 

.

@agitato said:

Fahl, 

Maybe there is some issue with your communicating in English, but your response to Guy sounded rude and uncalled for. Guy wasnt lecturing you or anyone, but apologizing to all of us (for no valid reason). But in your response you seem to give him advice on how to behave ('learn to respect?'). Thats the way it comes across.

If you want to know what "rude" is you will most likely find nore than acceptabnle Examples in Postings by William.

There is exactly nothing rude nor even personal abusive or what ever, when I consent Guy and express the very justifed whish that he would respect in future the fact that he might get an answer on what he is posting.

This was the only but obviously severe problem of our communication, that as soon I just answered wih well founded arguments. Guy was not able to refer to the arguments anymore but tried to debase my person and alleged character. And this is the point where I still whish he would have enough respect for other members to be ready to stay on the level of an objective music-related discussion and do not descent into debasing personal wordings. against the person who he talks to, because becoming personal in that way does mean loosing any substance of a constructive music related discussion.

Even if Guy Bacos explicitly tried to justify rude personal and completly inacceptable aggression like those of William  against me. I still hope that Guy Bacos will never sink on such a low niveau.

Therefore I cannot see anyhing more helpful, than to express my hope that we all come back to a music related discussion, with all respect for those we talk to and what ever musical opinion or arguments they would like to share.

Sorry but only where anyone looses that respect or even begins to use debasing or even aggressive wordings (like William nore often than acceptabl does), I think it must be in interest of a good discussion to remind that a music related discussion would take very much profit from the personal respect between each other even if he answers something perhaps not expected (as far it is music relted and not personal).

This is a very good Idea. I fully consent this will help to keep fruitless participations out.

Something like the Facebook-Option to block people to see ones own participation will be very helpful.

@Acclarion said:

Forum moderators: perhaps the implementation of an "ignore" feature would allow participants to block the posts of those members with whom they don't wish to engage. Many other forums have such a feature and I strongly suspect it would be welcomed by members of this forum. Just a thought, Dave

This idea would definitely be helpful.  Being able to ignore a particular user who offers nothing of substance to the forum (in one's own opinion of course) would go a long way towards keeping things civil.

Also, my wife is a professional writer and editor.  She tells me of her experience on a moderated online forum and it seems to be a better way.   Also, the people she interacts with are all well-educated writers and poets (mostly women) who treat each other with a level of respect and consideration that men are, for the most part, not very good at doing.  We could learn a lot from women when it comes to how to communicate with people we disagree with.

My problem on music forums is always with people who feel the need to give unsolicited criticism and advice but who's own work is mediocre (or worse) and uninteresting to me. I do not offer online criticism to any composer,  I get paid for teaching composition, classical music theory and electronic music production and I don't see it as my job to tell another composer what's wrong with their music.   I am focused on improving my own work and that's it, other than my students and trusted colleagues who might seek my advice.

Also, with online forums, we don't have the benefit of eye-contact, tone-of-voice, body language and facial expression - all the things that are critical to good communcation and establishing empathy.  

As a fly on the wall for these "discussions," I am reminded of a quote:

"You don't have to attend every argument to which you are invited."

Not directing this towards any person or any thread in particular, just an observation from the peanut gallery.

Warmest regards to all --

Craig