Comment withdrawn.
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fahl
just wanted to quickly clarify that I am not particularly against universities or formal education. As a matter of fact I am a university professor, but in engineering and not music. We do need universities to allow academic curiosity to fluorish in any field.
In my comment all I was saying from my own experience in academia is that this is a haven for mediocrtity but this is unavoidable. There are a lot of great people in academia too, not to mention the greatest scientists who ever lived!
I did take a few courses in conservatory but do not have a music degree.
And talking about classical music in America, I live in Boston where there is are so many amazing musicians and live concerts, many of them free. https://www.classical-scene.com/ We have some very exciting conductors like Benjamin Zander, and this was the place where John Williams spent many years in the Boston pops.
Living here Ive always felt classical music thrives, maybe its a bubble.
Also I should point out that I dont think Jazz fans moved to country music. Jazz music also thrives in north america, with so many festivals...just that its not as popular as it was in the Jazz era.
Best
Anand
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The only differrence is, in music there are no laws, but just rules. These rules can be broken to make even broader rules. This is all to create larger and larger possibilities withing the infinite landscape of music.
Best
Anand
I think you are partially correct, in music there are no direct laws governing a composer's aesthetic choices. But music is sound, sound is vibration, there are laws governing the behavior of vibration, and biological laws governing how we experience vibration. There are nonphysical laws, i.e. one's integrity, capacity to love and be loved, to be kind, fair, just and patient. We call it well-being or being in tune with one's whole being, to my mind and heart it's really about attunement with the absolute, the divine. We live in a law-governed cause-and-effect cosmos. Trying to determine the cause and the effect is the difficult part. Music can help us appreciate the harmony that pervades everything, which makes it lawful. The cultures that reject music will die out.
Jerry
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"That's all you do William, is "mouth-off", exactly like you said. You write in such incredible generalities and make such sweeping assumptions ("Music is now in a state of fragmentation") that I have to laugh at your posturing. More's the pity.
William writes " In the past there was always a singular great movement..."
Of course this is wrong, as there have been aesthetic clashes and debates going back to the 14th century with Ars Nova. The critics were pounding composers in the 19th century as romanticism and modernism clashed, and today, as always, the best composers write music that is authentic to the culture and reflective of the many traditions we've inherited from our ancestors. Even in the 16th century, there were different approaches and styles all throughout Europe. There never has been a "singular great movement", you're sentimentalizing the past, which is what people tend to do when they cannot cope with the challenges, complexities, diversity, influences and dynamism of the 21st century." - jsg
In the Classical Era, there WAS a movement headed by Joseph Haydn. Beethoven was anxious to be accepted by Haydn. In the Romantic Era, there WAS a movement - Brahms and Schumann were vigorously opposed to Wagner. There were extreme factions between these groups. In the Post-Romantic Era, there WAS a movement - Bruckner and then his champion - Mahler - were creating music in a similar harmonic idiom, slowly advancing to more and more complex harmony.
There was not total freedom - to do anything from pure white sound to Medieval plainchant which is in fact a characteristic of today - and that was NOT the case in the past.
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btw this person jsg says the only thing I do is "mouth off" - no, I do other things including:
to name a few. I will not be insulted like this on this Forum and demand an apology. I am not accepting this kind of treatment from people who have no qualification to dismiss me in this way.
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. Of course, good intentions do not forgive ugliness, but they are not con artists like Cage.
OK, you've publically accused a dead artist of being a con-man. Prove it. Did you know him? Did he con you out of money, out of property or a job? Did he con anybody you know? Your empty accusations are ugly. You've made him into a monolith and now you have to rip him apart. It's all in your mind Paul.
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btw this person jsg says the only thing I do is "mouth off" - no, I do other things including:
to name a few. I will not be insulted like this on this Forum and demand an apology. I am not accepting this kind of treatment from people who have no qualification to dismiss me in this way.
I have nothing to apologize for so in spite of your demand for one you won't get it from me. It was YOU who said you are mouthing off on the forum, here are your words:
( btw unlike Errikos I always try to find time to mouth off here on the VSL Forum - as long as the libations hold out.
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mh-7635,
Why not post under your real name? I believe using ones real name on the internet fosters a more congenial environment for all.
Who do I rate? By that I think you mean who do I admire and spend time listening to their music? The fields of choral music, especially religious choral music, and symphonic band music, have many composers of note. The way this usually works is I name a few, then the proponent of atonality trashes them, thinking they have thus won some kind of point. However, I will play along and we will see what happens.
Among choral composers Eric Whitacre has had enormous success. Among symphonic band composers Phillip Sparke is well worth a listen. Most of the best orchestral writers have gravitated towards film music. There are many of these in the past, Korngold, Herman and Miklos Rozsa immediately come to mind. Living today we have a clear connection with concert music in the Lord of the Rings Symphony by Howard Shore.
But no need to look further than right here at the VSL forum. Guy Bacos and William Kersten create marvelous, well crafted orchestral music.
My statement that atonality is old is not a misleading, false, or deceptive argument. It is simply a fact, and was stated as a fact backed up by factual evidence. Calling a fact an opinion, even calling it specious, does not advance the discussion. I do not have a time limit for aesthetic movements. What made you think that? Tonality dates back to the dawn of human history. The greek philosophers of antiquity wrote about the various modes.
What do I propose for young composers? I would tell them to write what is in their heart. I would tell them that if they want a large audience they need to utilize the tonal language of music. I would tell them not to worry about being "original" or "finding their own voice" or "speaking to our time." If they master their craft, then if they have something original to say it will come out of them naturally.
Yes, institutions have probably ruined many potentially fine composers. Thankfully that seems to be changing. I do not agree that anyone needs to "make themselves relevant." How do we judge what is or is not relevant to our current society? Isn't Eric Witacre relevant? If not, why not?
Well Paul to address your post in order - my signature tells everyone who I am but your continuing adjectives tend to rule out congeniality. BTW I suggest you do not click on my site as there are some pieces there that will not be to your taste, but you and everyone else are welcome to call me whatever you like, I only ask that you keep it civil if you want reasoned debate.
From what you write, I can't seem to escape the conclusion that you seem to think atonality and tonality do not mix whether it be musically or regarding someones creative preferences. I believe you are wrong on these points , firstly because I am not going to 'trash' your preferences and instead agree with you about the composers you have mentioned - although it is duly noted that the best you can come up with in a thread instigated by an appreciation of Salonen is Howard Shore who is of course a great film composer, but some here might consider his ouvre to be a little off-topic when considering the highest aspirational realms of our practice, if only because film scorings raison d'etre imposes a utility on self-expression, which is in the main absent in the concert world. (I do not want to digress too much here, but accept that there is a good argument against this that suggests that the desire for self expression in film scoring can be quenched in practice, but as this thread is not about film scoring I shall leave it there).
Secondly, your assumption that the 2 technical practices (tonal -atonal) are mutually exclusive is completely fallacious because one is surely an all-encompassing extension of the other and when used competently gives the composer a wide expressive arc - all that is needed are adventurous ears and a willingness to search.
Your assertion that atonality is old and therefore not a way forward is a subjective conclusion based on your antipathy and is not factual nor predicated on the reality of current practice. The fact is that atonality and tonality exist side by side in todays zeitgeist and can even be combined very successfully. You really are missing out on wonderful music Paul, music that has extended levels of functioning harmonic practice that is not proscriptive in a dodecaphonic sense. This makes me wonder if your definition of atonality is the same as mine and many of the great composers of shall we say the last 60 years, but if you haven't listened to any of their music, how are you to know and even insult their work convincingly.
For once I agree fully with the paragraph starting with your propositions for young composers. Some will venture into atonality and find a seductive world of possibilities.
www.mikehewer.com -
OK Jerry + William and who else is talking on the edge of any "insult" against anyone here or anywhere else please in respect to the dignity of the very interesting and serious subject of this Thread it seems to me time to come back to Beethoven 9th:
"O Freunde, nicht diese Töne! sondern laßt uns angenehmere anstimmen, und freudenvollere."
Please stay true friends in music: straight, clear and honest in the matter, but not in anyway personal since I fear that will not answer at all the question which started this thread.
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Some days ago, I've tried to give my point of view, but Ive been reading all the posts so far. I must say that I'm not very pleased with the tone of them. Some are quite practical, intellectual... some are rather rude to even brutal. It migt be true that only friends can speak their minds freely to one another, but an insult remains an insult, no matter how you look at it.
My second point was, that this section of our forum has been hijacked for a long topic that actually doesn't belong here, however interesting. Maybe for that purpose a new section should be opened like "Personal views on the direction of future music". This sections should deal with Composition - Orchestration - Instruments. One could of course argument that the direction of composition fits in here, but that's more a cultural or historical consideration with aesthetic aspects (and taste).
I don't want to interfere any further, but to throw another aspect in the discussion, I would want to post a little piece here that says it all in a nutshell. It is not (as we say in Flanders) a stone in the frog's puddle (disturbance), but only a minor and rather funny example without wanting to prove any right or wrong.
Jean-Féry Rebel (what's in a name...) wrote "Les Eléments" in 1737. The first element is called "Le Chaos" .
Le Chaos makes a leap of 200 years towards atonality (Wikipedia). It wasn't received warmly as you can imagine. But Féry was a clever man. He used this bit of atonality only functionally in the context of the creation of order in the universe as a huge contrast. Not just a series of meaningless dissonants without any direction. But still, it was a daring enterprise at that time of strictly regulated harmonic sequences.
Jos
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Great baroque clustermusic ! (meanwhile I think, when it comes to pittoresque composing there are of course several examples which tend to leave the range of conventional harmony even in earlier music history)
In short: courageuos modernism seems to be one of the oldest and most venerable traditions music has ever had 😃
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Hi David
I am sorry, but can not find in your latest posting any relation to the subject of this thread. Somethings seem to be more or less personal. And "psychological" advises no one has asked for seem to me likewise neither of any musical relevance for this thread nor very friendly or respectful for anyone to whom they might be adressed.
This is obviously a really difficult subject for any kind of relaxed and objective discussion. It is a pitty, since I think between many more or less personal misguided posts which no one really enjoys to read here, there are still a lot of musical interesting things to talk about.
BTW if you have had my "signature" in mind you should read it completly with the Questionmark at the end: It is a question I am just looking for anything comparable. So if you know anything I'll be glad to hear something about 😃 (Do you think this could be misunderstood as not modest enough? So I should better call my Music-Website perhaps "MaestroCorner" to show how many severe doubts I do have in thhe Quality of my own work 😛)
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Who said I had too much time on my hands?.......😕
If only.....
Fahl, don't take David too seriously, I think (hope) he is trying to be conciliatory. It is a heated debate and in need of measured language in order to progress to a detante...CMC -Conciliatory Music Counselling....
www.mikehewer.com -
Hi Acclarion
Great that you like your works, I hope that helps you understand, that others might likewise think about their own work without calling for any CMComplex or what ever.
To be clear I never had and therefor never formulated any opinion about your work. I only read in your own posting where youself talked about your work like that: "due to my own insecipurity about my worth as an artist," So I am glad that you are not in danger "to be your charming, personable self" ....."Maestro" 😉:
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The Meastro's Corner refers to a shop for conductors to purchase scores for performance, not a reference to my own status as a "maestro." Get over yourself, Fahl. As Mike clearly understood, a little levity amongst wayyy too serious artists was in order, for which I chose to provide, in perhaps, a not so successful way. Your response indicates a literal interpretation of my post, as if CMC is a real condition and I've just diagnosed you with it. Relax, it was a joke. David Carovillano
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mh-7635,
Why not post under your real name? I believe using ones real name on the internet fosters a more congenial environment for all.
Who do I rate? By that I think you mean who do I admire and spend time listening to their music? The fields of choral music, especially religious choral music, and symphonic band music, have many composers of note. The way this usually works is I name a few, then the proponent of atonality trashes them, thinking they have thus won some kind of point. However, I will play along and we will see what happens.
Among choral composers Eric Whitacre has had enormous success. Among symphonic band composers Phillip Sparke is well worth a listen. Most of the best orchestral writers have gravitated towards film music. There are many of these in the past, Korngold, Herman and Miklos Rozsa immediately come to mind. Living today we have a clear connection with concert music in the Lord of the Rings Symphony by Howard Shore.
But no need to look further than right here at the VSL forum. Guy Bacos and William Kersten create marvelous, well crafted orchestral music.
My statement that atonality is old is not a misleading, false, or deceptive argument. It is simply a fact, and was stated as a fact backed up by factual evidence. Calling a fact an opinion, even calling it specious, does not advance the discussion. I do not have a time limit for aesthetic movements. What made you think that? Tonality dates back to the dawn of human history. The greek philosophers of antiquity wrote about the various modes.
What do I propose for young composers? I would tell them to write what is in their heart. I would tell them that if they want a large audience they need to utilize the tonal language of music. I would tell them not to worry about being "original" or "finding their own voice" or "speaking to our time." If they master their craft, then if they have something original to say it will come out of them naturally.
Yes, institutions have probably ruined many potentially fine composers. Thankfully that seems to be changing. I do not agree that anyone needs to "make themselves relevant." How do we judge what is or is not relevant to our current society? Isn't Eric Witacre relevant? If not, why not?
Well Paul to address your post in order - my signature tells everyone who I am but your continuing adjectives tend to rule out congeniality. BTW I suggest you do not click on my site as there are some pieces there that will not be to your taste, but you and everyone else are welcome to call me whatever you like, I only ask that you keep it civil if you want reasoned debate.
From what you write, I can't seem to escape the conclusion that you seem to think atonality and tonality do not mix whether it be musically or regarding someones creative preferences. I believe you are wrong on these points , firstly because I am not going to 'trash' your preferences and instead agree with you about the composers you have mentioned - although it is duly noted that the best you can come up with in a thread instigated by an appreciation of Salonen is Howard Shore who is of course a great film composer, but some here might consider his ouvre to be a little off-topic when considering the highest aspirational realms of our practice, if only because film scorings raison d'etre imposes a utility on self-expression, which is in the main absent in the concert world. (I do not want to digress too much here, but accept that there is a good argument against this that suggests that the desire for self expression in film scoring can be quenched in practice, but as this thread is not about film scoring I shall leave it there).
Secondly, your assumption that the 2 technical practices (tonal -atonal) are mutually exclusive is completely fallacious because one is surely an all-encompassing extension of the other and when used competently gives the composer a wide expressive arc - all that is needed are adventurous ears and a willingness to search.
Your assertion that atonality is old and therefore not a way forward is a subjective conclusion based on your antipathy and is not factual nor predicated on the reality of current practice. The fact is that atonality and tonality exist side by side in todays zeitgeist and can even be combined very successfully. You really are missing out on wonderful music Paul, music that has extended levels of functioning harmonic practice that is not proscriptive in a dodecaphonic sense. This makes me wonder if your definition of atonality is the same as mine and many of the great composers of shall we say the last 60 years, but if you haven't listened to any of their music, how are you to know and even insult their work convincingly.
For once I agree fully with the paragraph starting with your propositions for young composers. Some will venture into atonality and find a seductive world of possibilities.
Mike is correct. Many composers of our time have learned, and are learning, to integrate tonal and atonal techniques, using the chromatic scale but at the same time using harmonies that make sense to that composer.
Composers have been playing with "tonal gravity" (the tendency to hear a given tone as a point of resolution, of repose) for centuries before the codification of this tendency into set theory or a 12-tone matrix. Schoenberg's achievement was a logical extention of the intense chromaticism of the late 19th and early 20th century, and he overcame the chromatic scale's organization into 12 half-steps by creating the tone-row. The challenge is to create music with all 12 tones but do it with harmonies that are beautiful and meaningful. The line between tonality and atonality is a grey line, it's not black and white.
The San Francisco Conservatory of Music's electronic music class is coming to my studio this week for a field trip, so I have an opportunity to listen to and learn from what young composers are doing and thinking about.
I'll be taking a break from this forum for a while, must concentrate on composing, taking care of my family and teaching.
