I agree the organ section was a little better than the other.  It got away a little from the constant thick dull layers of sound that weigh down the rest of the film.  

The pipe organ has been used many times, very famously in "Last Year In Marienbad" and the great low budget horror movie "Carnival of Souls" which both have fantastic organ solo scores.  Not to mention silent films  which had organ scores very commonly.  

I really should just blabber about those and similar ones in a positive light rather than negatively rant about Zimmer but I was in a state of shock and confusion. I am feeling a little calmer now.  

 "There are other guys in the world earning even more money without any musical quality at all. In short: money is imho no aspect of musical quality" - fahl5

That is true but what I was reacting to is - in the past up to the fairly recent past, the highest paid and most successful film composers were Erich Korngold,  Max Steiner, Bernard Herrmann,  Jerry Goldsmith and John Williams.  All very wealthy. 

And all of those composers are truly great musicians, some of the finest orchestral composing minds of the 20th century.   So making money does NOT equate to being a pathetically lame composer.  

But never mind - this thread was the result of my overreaction.  Zimmer makes huge amounts of money, teaches students, does press releases, is loved by every producer in Hollywood, is apparently considered great.  That is the new reality.  

"I have a feeling the string players on these scoring sessions go home in a shaken state of mind and feebly play - alone in their rooms - a little bit of a Bach partita to restore their understanding of why they ever went into music as a career. " - This is actually very true, players have told me so themselves.

Blade Runner is Vangelis' best soundtrack by far, and he has scored quite the few blockbusters...

I know Bill meant no disrespect, and I would like to add that it is a sacrilege for Vangelis to suffer finding himself in the same sentence with Hans. Vangelis did start out as a pop composer, but he was a hugely successful one. Jon Anderson (of Yes fame) recalled going to meet Vangelis in Paris for the first time for potential collaboration, and Vangelis picked him up in a Rolls Royce; many years before Chariots...

Plus, and that's a huge monumental plus with phantasmagorical neon signs and fireworks going around it, although also not professionally trained, Vangelis has an incredible ear (evident in his musical choices, voicings, instrumentation, etc.), can write great, triumphant themes, beautiful romantic themes, unbelievable, personal-introspective themes, understands popular -not dance- electronic music 1000 times better than Hans, and almost most of all, he doesn't have an army of real musicians on the payroll to "musify" his b*llsh*t ideas and fill the aural spectrum for him. And most of all, Vangelis has pioneered that genre himself (I think Brian Eno gets a little too much credit, but that is my opinion), and has a shelf-load of non-film-related music concept albums that are way more interesting than his soundtracks. 

Let's wait and see when Deutsche Grammophon releases a Hans album under their label (OK, the new owners), and Zimmer is German!

I don't care that he has $10s of millions, or even $100,000,000 over; who cares? Madonna has about a $1,000,000,000. You should hear my opinion of her as a composer.

I dont want to be ugly to anyone. So this is just my personal penchant. I feel strongly commited to the extraordinary standard and high Potential our european/western musical tradition has establishhed over several centuries.

In my humble opinion "tradition" comes from being excited from hearing what musicians befor us has done and trying as hard as possible to come near to what they accomplished to do. From this point of view for me an inspired classical formation is a good and seminal starting point to start kind of a dialog with musical history to explore what ever is possible in music. This is what is exciting for me. (However this is of course a very personal view and might be totally different for others)

If someone rejects to delve into the universe of our musical tradition, it is therefiore very likely that I personally do lose my interest for what he is doing, simply because he is in danger to believe he himself would have ingeniusly invented each simple note he wrote himself without a realistic knowledge how poor this very often might be having in mind what our colleagues have already done before in the last centuries.

Hans Zimmers traditional musical formation, does not seem to be (friendly spoken) the most important part of his musical biography. His path wents through british Pop-music. That might have been funny for him, but for me, sorry it is nothing that seems that much important. So that might be the reason, why I never heard anything made by Hans Zimmer (OK I cant say I have heard to much or all), but at least still nothing of all I heard seriously rose any in any way my attention.

Thats just my humble opinion I hope it is not to selfish or arrogant, but it is at least honest.

i really agree with that, Errikos, on Vangelis as he is a composer of real melodies, even those you can't get out of your head.  That is the ultimate composing, because everything else is just skill. 

ok I decided to drop it.  

There should be an opposing thread probably.  Or a positive one. 

Thank YOU for starting this thread. I somehow missed it due to travels.

Sorry to continue this but I do not think this discussion is out of place. We have to discuss this travesty of a composer in the open without being politically correct. We should make everyone aware of what is quality music and what is not.

I usually vent to non-musician friends about HZ being prime example of the combination of medicrity and greed and how I feel that this is a powerful combination.

But to discuss this in this forum full of like-mided people, feels more comforting since people here are also muscians like me, or actually, much better than me.

You know, just the other day I was listening to Danny Elfman's Batman score from the 1988 and couldnt help but feel that HZ singlehandedly destroyed film/television music with his (as Errikos says)  Dada-didi-dada-didi-dada-didi-dada-didi  which seems to pervade all orchestral music in popular media.

This is pretty much the only thing HZ knows. Here is a YT video where he is talking about music theory 

where he is trying to explain harmonic progression but you can clearly see he is illiterate in music. When speaking HZ has this ability to say something absolutely trite or trivial but appears to have some great depth to it. In reality its just completely empty nonsense. His music reveals that!

And also the other day I was watching Gladiator and couldnt believe that much of the music sounded like the Pirates of the carribean theme (daa daa dada dada...daa daa dada dada...), which I guess is not even his original theme.

I really wish film music would forget Dada-didi-dada-didi!

The reality is that he has thousands of fans who think he is the greatest living composer!

Anand

Errikos,

I can read your post again and again and again. So well written and describes my thoughts much better than I can.

@Errikos said:

For me, it is irresistible to participate in a discussion about the great guru. As far as Interstellar is concerned I spared myself. However, it is only a few weeks ago that my mother (well informed in the classics) called me and said she had seen Dunkirk the night before and she particularly liked the music, as it really complemented the visual elements very well.

Having not seen Dunkirk either I have no first hand opinion, but I can imagine... I am ready to concede that there were scenes where the music would in fact have been effective. However, Hans is the quintessential definition of a one-trick-pony (at least for the past 20 years or so). Huge conflict on a WWII battlefield? Dada-didi-dada-didi-dada-didi-dada-didi in minor mode... A panorama of a dystopian, dark cityscape? Dada-didi-dada-didi-dada-didi-dada-didi in minor mode... A love scene in a wheat-field? Dada-didi-dada-didi-dada-didi-dada-didi in minor mode... The on-screen magical creation of a civic centre that folds over itself in brilliant sunshine? Dada-didi-dada-didi-dada-didi-dada-didi in minor mode... A man suddenly discovers he possesses the ability to euphorically fly over mountains and fields at incredible speeds? Dada-didi-dada-didi-dada-didi-dada-didi in minor mode... And so on and so on...

If anybody could be bothered finding out how I feel about a pop composer with the expressive range of a boring broken record making untold millions in film, becoming a household name, and inspiring endless hordes of musical ignorami to follow in his pawsteps, can access my posts in similar threads on this forum.

All I have to say here is that 'Political Correctness' [i.e. 'Political (and Musical) Hypnosis'] extends far beyond modes of perfunctory social behaviour, and is a conscious effort to enforce "correctness" on every facet of the human act, until we all properly form a single line, standing one behind the other; good, respectful, obedient, indiscriminate, consuming citizens.

@agitato said:

I really wish film music would forget[i]Dada-didi-dada-didi![/i] The reality is that he has thousands of fans who think he is the greatest living composer! Anand

wow Zimmer fan....This is gonna be fun.

@Another User said:

IThe GladiatorOST is completely different from Pirates of the Caribian. The title track of Gladiator is this one ... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NBE-uBgtINg I did not hear a song like this in one of the Pirates-movies...???

Ok maybe i exaggerated a bit. Its not an exact copy but there are sections that very similar. For example this, hear the theme starting about 5m24s:

https://youtu.be/A_4RT1qb29E?t=5m23shttps://youtu.be/A_4RT1qb29E?t=5m23s

And some parts of it are stunningly directly lifted from Holst 'The planets'.  I think thats because Zimmer thinks Williams 'copied' from Holst for Star wars (yes maybe he did it but in an intelligent way), and decided to just take phrases out of the Planets!! And he probably didnt do this himself...probably an orchestrator. 

but this is besides the point...its all thump thump thump... 

@LAJ said:

One last thougt. When I heared the title-track of Games of thrones a was a 100% sure that is Must be composed by Zimmer. And I was surprised that this "dada-didi"-song is composed by Ramin Djawadi. This title became a hit ... so dada-didi seems to be very successfull even when Zimmer is not the composer ;)))))))))))) And I am sure that this composer is Zimmer-Inspirated. So again ... If it works for the movie, and People love it, it is a great job. Filmmusic and Symphony are "2 different pairs of shoes".

You see...thats EXACTLY the point. Zimmer has shown the way for mediocrity....that using the same 'dada didi' you can be very successful in the film music industry. So no one aspires to anything more. 

You think its hard to do dada didi dada didi?

ANYONE with a basic idea of music can do it. And EVERYONE seems to be doing it....from tv to film. I can make a 60 minute film score filled with dada didi, and if I had 500k to hire the LSO it will sound pretty good.

But I'd rather stick to VSL and make music where I use my brain a little bit (left and right sides!)

We are not talking here about any absolutes. There are no absolutes this world. Anything goes here and we are all dead sooner or later anyways. In 5 billion years, there will be no sun.

But all else being equal, I am only comparing Zimmer to many other great composers and saying he is medicore for the level of success and money. Take it whatever way you want.

And some parts of it are stunningly directly lifted from Holst 'The planets'.  I think thats because Zimmer thinks Williams 'copied' from Holst for Star wars (yes maybe he did it but in an intelligent way), and decided to just take phrases out of the Planets!! And he probably didnt do this himself...probably an orchestrator. 

Anand,

I don't know for sure, but as Gladiator was directed by Ridley Scott, I should imagine a temp track or a briefing figured highly in Zimmers' choices. I seriously doubt an orchestrator made creative decisions without consultation. All film composers have to make artistic choices hindered by temp tracks, director preferences and time pressures and given the stress Zimmer must be under at times, I think he has written some memorable scores.

Jeez, guys, this (is it annual?) Zimmer bashing is very unseemly. The man is successful and deservedly so in my book. The problem is the composer clones and the paucity of aesthetic adventure in Hollywoods money men as far as I can tell, not the composer/innovator of the style in demand. 

There is nothing wrong with being a critic except it can get you in trouble.  An example is Edgar Allan Poe who was the most hostile, savage critic of his day - and he was right in every case, skewering the mediocre pretenders.  But he got a lot of people hating him and died after being found beat up in a gutter.  But we should not criticize if we think it?  If you really feel something it could be considered  a moral duty to speak out.   Also, does anyone actually think Zimmer gives a rat's ass about anything said here?  That is hilarious.    He is laughing all the way to the bank.

 But I have to respond to the great post by Agitato (excellent name for a critic) concerning the original Batman which is so vastly different from Zimmer's later block chord/percussion pad score.  

Elfman created a symphonic masterpiece in his score, starting with the firt statement of the minor key motif which is developed powerfully in the Main Title, and then at the end of the film transformed into a spectacular major key reiteration in constantly rising pitches - as the camera tilts and dollies upward to the dark sky - where Batman stands alone and triumphant.  That is one of the great images and film score moments in cinema history.  

Thing is William, I agree about J.Williams, Korngold et al, but as you will be aware, film scoring is operating under a different paradigm these days. At least Zimmer and his studio/team can write a decent tune now and again. (allright that is subjective, don't snort - ok you did- no sense arguing about that :-)  The music is often pad and bed based, but the production is top rate in all aspects and most importantly, imo the music does what it is supposed to do and has never gotten in the way for me, even in Interstellar (mind you I am a sci-fi geek, give me a spaceship and stick any old crap music behind it and I'd still be drawn in).

I think his music in many places rams home psychological sublimities in a convincing way too. Hell I even think the restrained brooding power of that crescendo minor 3rd in the Batman theme is powerful because of its utter simplicity. I'm not goading you honest, I remember when I first heard that music I thought then that it was a stroke of brave instinct (nearly said genius!!) to be so simple and yet so in tune with the character of Batman. Oh dear have I gone on too long about that particular score?

Of course it's fine to air your opinion, but expect rejoinders in the spirit of a forum. As always though it is entertaining and thought provoking.

Mike.

@mh-7635 said:

Of course it's fine to air your opinion, but expect rejoinders in the spirit of a forum. As always though it is entertaining and thought provoking. Mike.

I think, this is a very good thread. Afterall we are just expressing opinions, and as William said, Zimmer gives a rats ass about what we say just as many here give a rats ass about his music. 

Also, nothing personal intended ... Zimmer appears to be a super nice guy and has probably helped many people in the film music industry.

@mh-7635 said:

At least Zimmer and his studio/team can write a decent tune now and again. (allright that is subjective, don't snort - ok you did- no sense arguing about that 😊  The music is often pad and bed based, but the production is top rate in all aspects and most importantly, imo the music does what it is supposed to do and has never gotten in the way for me, even in Interstellar (mind you I am a sci-fi geek, give me a spaceship and stick any old crap music behind it and I'd still be drawn in).

I actually agree that his music doesnt get in the way of the movies and is even quite effective in some cases, for example, As good as it gets..... But since I have a choice to compare, I do so and find his music utterly medicore for what he is supposed to be. This is merely an expression of a wish ... "how would it have sounded if JW or Elfman scored this?" etc.,.... Again thats just my opnion and everyone has a right to listen to what they want..

Shoudl we be satisfied with "writing a decent tune" once in a while (which I actually dont think is the case.) and the production is top rate? The production will of course be top rate, they spend millions of dollars on the music.

I like to strive to be better abd better, and since I hardly improve myself, I tend to admire composers who actually do that. For me at least, Zimmer doesnt fit that paradigm. Good for him that he is so successful.

 Just my opinion again.

@agitato said:

Errikos,

I can read your post again and again and again. So well written and describes my thoughts much better than I can.

Thank you agitato. By the way, the YouTube video URL you posted, I also have posted here in the past. It's like Stravinsky explaining his harmonic choice of the Symphony of Psalms opening chord, isn't it?

Mike: I disagree that Hans can turn out a good theme every now and then, after all Gladiator is certain to have been tempd with Vangelis' 1492; the theme is a clear giveaway. Hans is not responsible for this of course, it must have been Scott's wish, but still it cannot qualify as an original Zimmerian theme (if there is such a thing). As for the 'single chord' that can be so effective in a certain scene, no argument there, but it isn't nearly as admirable - as a brilliantly laconic device - as when say Williams would employ it. My contention is that Hans simply could not have composed anything more elaborate in its place, like you or I could.

I have also mentioned many times that I have less against Hans himself, who has created his own film-scoring signature (even if it is just a cross), and more against the uncultured Hollywood producers and directors who buy it, the software companies that produce libraries of ready-made, take-away orchestral puerility, and the armies of ork emulators vying in the wings.

"... armies of orc emulators vying in the wings..." - Errikos

I love it!  

Actually I intended to stop this thread since I don't want to be negative in general.  However I have to say that in response to the idea that Zimmer music does not get in the way of films, it does to me, hugely, to the extent that I don't go to films that I see he scored.  Because I know I will be subjected to a droning oppression of heavy thick musical noise that gives me a headache, even nausea, as opposed to a music score.  Dark Knight and Inception were ruined by this horrible noise which lies thickly and heavily upon the films like a layer of ugly sludge.

But never mind.  I need to just shut up and try and do something positive as a result to something negative I experience rather than merely react to the negative with more negativity. Zimmer makes a huge amount of money and he is happy and content because of that. I realize that and will not continue these complaints.  It is a waste of  composing time !  (As opposed to decomposing time which we all will have plenty of, after Zimmer is no longer a topic of conversation.)