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Hello VSL Community,
here is the less conservative orchestral mix I've ever done in Vienna Suite and VE: Epic Orchestral (track ends at 2:50). I would be pleased to hear your feedback and comments, I enjoy mixing with Vienna Suite plug-ins and I wish to keep improving. 😃
Best regards
Francesco
Edit: P.s. sorry for the watermark!
Deleted
Hi Francesco
As always: The following feedback is based on my personal observations. It is not absolute. So do not take it personally... Also the feedback only concerns the mix and not the music. Keep in mind as well, that I listen to your mix with new ears and completety removed from possible troubles you had, decisions you need to make.
About the mix
One can make out that you worked a lot, and that you used all the Suite effects for getting a good result.
About Stereo Matters
My first impression was that the mix is a bit more to the left than nicely balanced. So I measured the balance. Both channels had the same RMS value. Then I checked the stereo matters. You did not used in its full possibilities so I enhanced the stereo with aboth the low mids ... and suddenly the mix seems to drift even more to the left. So I panned the Side-Signal to the right until the whole result seems to be more centered.
About Frequency Matters
I believe you mixed your piece either with headphones (which has the tendency of enhancing the hights - such as for example the AKG K702) or you used small monitors which do not have a linear low end. However, your mix sounds a bit "blowed up" in the mid-low range. Specially the bass range 50Hz - 100Hz dominates the mix but also the low mids. So it could sound a bit boomy when it would be played with speakers which are standing in corners, on the floor but also with desktop speakers. So I would lower the lows and enhance the hights a bit. lowshelf / hishelf both with the frequency at 1kHz
About Compression
I do not know when the mix got its strong compression over all - was it in the final output channel or was it already done with each instrument section or twice. At any rate: The drums seem to be very (too much for me) compressed to my taste. Also within the tutti parts they should sound as nice as the do within the very last part.
BTW: the very last Part sounds very transparent. Isn't it possible to ad the strings so that the part keeps its timbre and transparency?
My example
I recorded your example from soundcloud and tried to change the matters I mentioned above. The result is not very impressive, because "mastering" a bad mp3-quality leads to an even more bad mp3. So I decided to let it uncompressed... Further: I have over done of coarse all the treatments just to demonstrate it in a better way. For a proper work it would be better not to have an mp3.
So far my feedback. Please read my intro-words once more... ;-)
All the best
Beat
Hi Beat,
thank you for your feedback! 😊
I've posted the track here because I'm after honest comments just like yours. Plus, you know VSL products very well and I've applied your guidelines to my mixes more than once in the past, with good results.
Please let me give you a little background:
Stereo Matters - I see what you say, and I'm trying to figure out what happened. Either my string arrangement and indvidual panning might have contributed to the stereo image being like this. Also some monitoring issue that become more important any time I try to push one mix a little bit further.
Frequencies - I use Yamaha HS8. Yes, they enhance high frequencies. Still non-treated room. I end up with too much low-mids every single time, this time I tried adding a little bit of bass with the multiband compressor.
Compression - Drum bus is heavily compressed and so is the master, I see your point.......it should really sound always as nice as the very last part. I agree with you entirely.
About Your Example: it sounds good from laptop and I'm gonna play it with my speakers tomorrow. Gonna get back in touch!
Every time I try to push my mixes beyond my usual sound/levels, every time I use super loud reference tracks I encounter the same problems. I know it's not the samples, and it's not the mixing suite: they are both very good. It is about speakers/room and mixing skills. One can either choose to be safe and get the same result all the time or to keep growing. Of course it's not all about loudness, some mix don't have to be loud........but sometimes I want to do that and I need to learn how to do it properly.
Now that was an easy-to-mix track: Hellish Lullaby, could you please have a listen and tell me how it compares to the other one? Is it good because the arrangement is less complex? I did the same mistakes that are just less evident because I went easier on the limiter?
Can't wait to hearing your example, tomorrow morning.
Thank you so much! 😃
All the best
Francesco
Hi Beat,
I've listened to your example on my speakers. The not mastered one sounds very similar to my track......I believe that my HS8 just make them sound the same and that's a problem I have to address: I need to have more reliable high-end response if I want to mix properly. Your mastered one sounds boomy and lacks some low-mids (on HS8 and in my room).........this is perhaps the answer I was looking for. All the time I use reference tracks, do my Eq-ing, Comp, panning etc....everything seems to be balanced, eventually, as I turn on the Multiband 64 my lower mids are at least twice as louder than any other frequency band.
The good part is that I am moving to another place and I'll hopefully set a better listening environment as soon as possible.
BTW: the very last Part sounds very transparent. Isn't it possible to ad the strings so that the part keeps its timbre and transparency?
Hi Francesco
Sorry for the deleay. I have been on holiday... As soon as I will find the time I will be back here. Be a little patient, please.
Beat
Hello Beat,
thank you for your reply.
No need to apologize, please, take your time. I sincerely hope that you had a pleasant holiday. 😊
Best regards
Francesco
Hello again, Francesco
I've listened to your new track. I believe there are really some improvements as far as I can recognize. There are 2 points left which I would work on it.
1. The bass range
It seems that the Bass plays often between D G and C... somewhere between 70Hz and 100Hz. To my taste it is a bit too dominant. An Analyzer confirms at least that the bass is a bit "lift of" compared to the rest of the music. But this is not the problem so far. It is the bassdrum which covers those bass tones with its high energy waves in the same range which the bass should play. I would treat those Bassdrum with an EQ so that the bass has the room to come through even if the bassdrum plays. You also could try to compress the bassdrum either with a dynamic EQ or with a compressor. Use not less than 10ms for the attack, so that the "kick" still comes through. Also: Make sure that other instruments do not play below 100 Hz (Low cuts or at least Low shelfs (-12dB) in each channel, except in the bass- and the bassdrum-channel).
So the aim should be to differ the bassdrum and the bass in a better way. Currently we have "porridge" in the low end. 😉
2. Stereo Image
I still believe you could enhance the stereofield a bit or turn some instruments a bit more to the right or left. It seems that max 50% is used...
Finally
I did not checked your file with computer speakers. They often play audio material around 500 - 1000 Hz "very good". Could be that your file will sound even better (less boomy) via such speakers when you lower those frequency range with an EQ a bit (low Q, -1... - 2dB). A good mix should sound good on every speaker.
Hope these feedback helps as well.
Beat
Hi Beat,
thank you for your reply!
I see what you say about the low end, well spotted. I'll pay more attention in the future. I must say that Hellish Lullaby sounds reasonably well on my laptop.......but it could definitely sound better.
I agree with you about the stereo image, I will work on individual instruments placement a bit more. What do you mean 'enhance the image'? Is it time for me to learn about Mid-Side technique? I studied it but never tried it........ is it worthwile to have a MS plugin so one could simply insert it on the master chain?
Thanks for your valuable feedback and help. 😃
All the best
Francesco
Hi Beat,
...What do you mean 'enhance the image'? Is it time for me to learn about Mid-Side technique? I studied it but never tried it........ is it worthwile to have a MS plugin so one could simply insert it on the master chain? ...
Hi Francesco
First of all: Keep in mind that we speak about your mix on a higher level. So your mix is not bad. My feedback only tells you points which can be treated (if you want) for an even better result.
About the "Bass-range-matter" you will find some videos in the net, because bands do actulally have the same problem (differ the E-Bass and the bass drum) here I would try to get a clearer result when both are playing.
About M/S: Yes, analysing your mix shows that the stereo information is not used in its full possibilities and not over the whole frequency band. Some frequency regions are almost mono. Further the whole stereo information still seems to be more to the right which let us think that the sound over all is more to the left channel even if the RMS-averrage is equal in both channels. All these things you could be treated with M/S-EQs, M/S- Compressors or other M/S-tools the best. Of course you also need an analyser tool to see what happens when you change those things. Later on you would be able to make out most of such "M/S_issues" without an analyser tool because you know how those issues are sounding. Please understand, that I want not to publish here a list with tools. And yes, those M/S-effects are insertetd in effect chaines as other tools are. Further: The M/S-theme can not be handled with one or two advices. It needs a lot of tasks and experiences which are carfully to be trained before...
So, once more, I speak here about "mastering tipps" for your mix on a higher level. Leave your mix as it is. If you like you could place some of the instruments a bit more to the left and to the right (for example the violins 1 more to the left and the cellos more to the right or if you have the violin 2 on the right side a bit more to the rigt).
You also could enhance the stereo-image with a stereo-imager-tool but control this task with a correlation tool (VSL SUITE), so that the value more moves between 0 and 0,5 (instead between 0,5 and 1) but not within the "MINUS - range".
Once more: This stereo-treatment is not a must it is more a "can" or "could".
All the best
Beat
First of all: Keep in mind that we speak about your mix on a higher level. So your mix is not bad. My feedback only tells you points which can be treated (if you want) for an even better result.
Of course I need to provide myself with a better listening environment at earliest, but also I will get back to my previous general orchestral layout (2nd Violins on the left, according to your stage plans) because I admit it's easier to get a wide sound that way.
This thread has been of great use to me. Thanks for your time!
All the best
Francesco
