@nektarios said:

With this logic, anyone who buys Orchestral Strings, would waste their money buying Appassionata Strings. For example, you have 14 violins in Orchestral vs 20 violins in Appassionata. I do think when you have a very large number of strings can make a difference sonically, and there are genres that require it. I can certainly layer the libraries, but it's not the same really.

14 to 20 is quite a big difference. After 20 it is pretty much a waste of time. Even with 20 you would have a string section of around 70 which is quite big enough. Could you point me to an orchestral recording that uses more, so that I can hear the difference you are talking about. I have played in String ensembles that have had these sorts of numbers, and the actual sound was pretty much no different to a group of 60-70 players.

DG

Well I was looking at a competing product and liked the sound I heard. Here is the clip where they demonstrate:

Go to 6:05 and onwards and hear the sustain patches. I always wanted patches sounding like this...

Btw, I realized they also use 20 violins. Obviously, this is not VSL, and not as flexible and room sound is baked in, but I like the string sound a lot. 😊

Hm, I don't know ... I think that this "bigger, bolder, louder" approach is marketing thing first and foremost. Things have become very loud and very big in the scoring world, and I'm not sure if there's a lot of room left for further gains before the last bits of musical subtlety are smothered underneath.

Appassionata Strings, Epic Horns and Fanfare Trumpets are already very big, and can be made to sound even more over the top by rather simple means. Does it really need more? Perhaps it may sound impressive to some when a sample library developer announces their new 200-piece-choir, or their "low woods" ensemble comprised of 15 bass clarinets and 15 contra bassoons. Makes me chuckle a bit though, and I'm not even making these numbers up. Not sure if that's the train we really need to see VSL jumping on.

There's a point after which things stop sounding bigger and mightier by adding more. Instead it starts to sound weaker, toneless, blunt, less focused and actually more fake. And then you have to make it somewhat crisp and firm through processing and trickery. Imagine if developers did that to their commercial libraries!.. 😉

Jimmy, 

I agree with what you say. This competing library is totally unusable for my needs... The interesting thing is that I never look for a bolder and lounder sound, to be honest. What I am looking for is very soft string sustains. Sometimes I feel VSL does not go "soft" enough for my needs. I am talking about veeery soft sustains... With some work, I've been able to get the sound I want, but I still feel that it could go further in the direction I envision.

In orchestral terminology, I need a velocity layer of ppp for my strings. Maybe the next string library can have 8 velocity layers...

@nektarios said:

Well I was looking at a competing product and liked the sound I heard. Here is the clip where they demonstrate:

Go to 6:05 and onwards and hear the sustain patches. I always wanted patches sounding like this...

Btw, I realized they also use 20 violins. Obviously, this is not VSL, and not as flexible and room sound is baked in, but I like the string sound a lot. 😊

Yes, but not ony is this really synthetic sounding, it is also not 100 players and not a recording of an orchestra, so it doestn't really help your cause much.

DG

I think that demo is more about how the sounds are processed than anything else.  Lots of reverb, lots of warmth without losing too much clarity.

There's definitely a point where "more" doesn't actually sound bigger, just fuzzier.

Well what he is demonstrating in the video is their patches out of the box. They did not add any reverb. You just hear the "room sound" from their multiple mics. I am sure there was EQ involved, and some processing with harmonic distortion, but I've heard this kind of sustain string sound even on live performances, and I have been trying to mimic this sound with VSL to some success, which can be done by layering different libraries. In my case it was, Appassionata Strings, Dimension Strings, and Chamber Violins. Although, even without the Chamber violins, it sounded satisfactory.

@Casiquire said:

I see, though the VSL model tends to be to record dry so I'd be surprised if they made something like that.

Indeed, no dry samples, very limitied set of articulations, no repetition patches, and hence, makes this library totally unusable for me...

My only wish is that VSL string libraries had more velocity layers -- especially covering the softer velocities.

@nektarios said:

My only wish is that VSL string libraries had more velocity layers -- especially covering the softer velocities.

good point: more velocity-layers (in both directions from ppp to fff)

@nektarios said:

My only wish is that VSL string libraries had more velocity layers -- especially covering the softer velocities.

I don't know anything about strings so forgive me if this question is just off-the-wall ignorance but don't the mutes cover the softer velocities?

Regarding bigger string sounds: Iv'e heard of composers blending real large string ensembles with large sampled string ensembles to create this gargantuan string sound but I'm not so sure that bigger means better.  In fact, I get rather annoyed with these massive in your face orchestral sounds but I guess it boils down to each his own.  For me though, less is more.

Incidently, if VSL is working on a new string library they're definately not going to announce it until it's ready.

@nektarios said:

My only wish is that VSL string libraries had more velocity layers -- especially covering the softer velocities.

@nektarios said:

My only wish is that VSL string libraries had more velocity layers -- especially covering the softer velocities.

Exactly. When I first bought my VSL String libs, I was trying to create a veeery soft passage, so I pushed my Velocity xFade all the way down to 1, and even though it was much lower in volume, it didn't have the soft texture of a ppp velocity layer. 

In general though, I am very happy with VSL, and I have been able to achieve this grand sound. A trick I use sometimes is to match EQ any strings I like on my VSL Strings, so becomes very fun... 😊

[/quote]

Yes but more importantly than volume, mutes change the sound of the instruments. A muted violin does not sound like a violin played quietly. It's more about getting a softer texture rather than a softer dynamic if you get what I mean. [/quote]

Ahh... I see.

I remember some years back, somebody was boasting on the forum about how they layered I think it was the orchestral strings with the OS mutes and the "glorious" sound it produced.

@ Nektarios

What if you layered AP Strings with AP Mutes + OS with OS mutes + Dimension Strings with Chamber Mutes + Solo Strings with Solo Mutes would that create the BIG string sound you're after?

Thank you Jasensmith. I keep forgetting that I have the mutes, and I can always use them to sculpt my sound. Although what you suggest would be a bit too much for what I aiming. What I'm aiming for really, if it was a live orchestra, would be: 20 Violins, 20 Violas, 30 Cellos, 30 Basses, and always wondered what is the best way to layer my VSL libraries to achieve that setup. Here is the different libraries of how many players they have:

Appassionata:

20 Violins
14 Violas
12 Cellos
10 Basses

Orchestra:

14 Violins
10 Violas
8 Cellos
6 Basses

Chamber

6 Violins
4 Violas
3 Cellos
2 Basses

Dimension Strings

8 Violins
6 Violas
6 Cellos
4 Basses

I guess there many ways of combining them to get the setup I want....

@jasensmith said:

@ Nektarios

What if you layered AP Strings with AP Mutes + OS with OS mutes + Dimension Strings with Chamber Mutes + Solo Strings with Solo Mutes would that create the BIG string sound you're after?

One of the questions I always have when I combine multiple string libraries, is how do I combine them so it sounds like they were recorded with that number of players. For instance, if I layer Appassionata with Chambers, we are talking about 26 violin players. The Chambers, obviously, have a microphone position far closer than the Appassionata.

What I have figured out, but still not sure about it, is use the Appassionata as my reference EQ. So I would match EQ the Chambers to the Appassionata (playing the same note, i.e., C4) and then adjust the level lower. When I do this, the Chamber Violins start sounding very much like the Appassionatas but as if there are only 6 violins and the microphone position sounds farther away. I also did this with the Dimension Violins. So interesting to hear! Obviously, I believe I can do this as all libraries were recorded in the same room.

"I was trying to create a veeery soft passage, so I pushed my Velocity xFade all the way down to 1, and even though it was much lower in volume, it didn't have the soft texture of a ppp velocity layer. "

To have the impression of a really soft passage it is more likely to suceed if it has come from somewhere else, by which I mean it follows a louder section! Also use of level and distance in the mix helps to crate the softness. I find these really soft textures are achievable with the VSL samples just a cae of the correct dynamics.

However soft the samples are if they are too loud in the listening environment not only do they start to loose their softness you start to hear the bowing noise quite strongly which not only sounds like a hiss aslo makes it sound harsher.

Julian