Cymbals A-D not reacting to expr. changes (Sib 6 ) + some additional Sibelius thoughts...

[zentrumsounds]

Hi,

I thought everything was working fine on a project which is making extensive use of the Percussion library. However whilst thus far all the Cymbals are reacting correctly to expression changes the Standard Cymbals set (A-D) are proving stubborn. I have no idea now what might be causing this. I've looked in the SSE programme to see if something is amiss and actually I can't seem to locate the Cymbals in question (unless these are the suspended cymbals of course). Also I can't make out where and how the different articulation types are being stored in the SSE. I can of course see the various mapped keys for the different articulations but when I change to a different beater I can't seem to see where these low C0 to F0's are being stored. Mmmm... I'm clearly missing something.

Also, I can't seem to get the roll working on the Tam tams. The manual describes 'roll' or the tremolo symbol as an option but this triggers C6 which according to the Tams's matrix description pdf is unoccupied.

I must say its taken quite a while to understand the functioning of the Percussion library, its integration within Sibelius and how best to set it up within VEPRo. At present the only way I can have two percussion staves which freely allow cymbals to be triggered from both staves using Instrument Changes is by having a section of the score at the beginning in which both staves have a number of bars with sequential instrument changes in the order as they appear in VEPRo. In fact understanding this subtle issue would appear to also solve ALL the Violin 1/Violin 2 issues I and many others have been having. It's squarely a Sibelius issue of course (an issue in that they don't mention this in their manual) but perhaps its something worth outlining more clearly for all of us who've struggled with erratic behavior when identical instruments appear on different staves.

Anyway any thought or advice on this much appreciated!

J

[andi]

Hello Jürgen!

Yes, the Cymbals A-D are called cymbals.suspended in the sound set structure.
The key switches for the different beaters in the sound set are stored under Start switch.
CC11 is disabled for the cymbals. Velocity X-Fade wouldn't make much sense for the cymbals, except for crescendo rolls and these sound way better when using the prerecorded crescendo rolls.
By the way. These prerecorded rolls can be triggered the following way:
Add a command to your dictionary that creates the Sound ID "+crescendo". With this text command in combination with the tremolo sign you can trigger the crescendo rolls. For a fast crescendo roll add the text command "fast".

Tam rolls were only recorded for Tam A. So they don't work for the Tams B or C. Sorry, I forgot to add that info to the manual.

Best wishes,
Andi

[zentrumsounds]

Hi Andi,

Ah, I didn't see the start switch until I clicked a Sound ID and then the interface "appeared'.

Still... I'm not getting any joy with the cymbals reading articulation text changes! Can I send you a score perhaps? I've now no idea what's wrong with this and need to get this working fast. Having started a test score from scratch I have managed to ascertain that the Cymbals A-D Soundset IS triggering damped and roll articulations but any other articulations regarding beater type (i.e. soft, mallet) is having no effect. This seems fine with the other cymbals.

"Velocity X-Fade wouldn't make much sense for the cymbals" - Actually I think pre-rerecorded articulations have only limited use. I have an entire section of a piece where a tam-tam tremolo increases and decreases in volume very slowly and at different rates. I think that whilst (of course) a prerecorded roll may sound better it is not really of much use unless the music just happens to require that gesture at that length... I am for instance sure that a marimba crescendo sounds better prerecorded but of course I can use the Velocity X-Fade in that scenario. What differentiates the cymbals from a marimba? (Most composers I know find these prerecorded gestures to be actually strangely annoying!)

Is there a way for me to reconfigure the cymbals SoundSet so that CC11 controls velocity x-fade?

Thanks!

[andi]

Hi Jürgen!

If you want a cymbal crescendo roll with Vel-Xfade, I suggest using the Sibelius Cresc./Dim. plugin for CC11 instead of changing the sound set. But please be aware that this way the rolls will not always sound realistic.

You can send me your score to a.olszewski@vsl.co.at
Don't forget to include the playback configuration (xml file and data folder)

Best,
Andi

[zentrumsounds]

Thanks Andi.

I've decided to split the percussion tracks into seperate staves rather then have a couple of share staves for all my needs. This seems to be more dependable given Sibelius' erratic behaviour with multiple instruments of the same Sound ID class running together on one stave. I'll send you the file nontheless and perhaps if you have a moment you could see if I'm overlooking something.

Regarding the cres. issue. THe Cresc/Dim Plug in is not really so flexible for my composing purposes but I guess it can be used in an emergency. Perhaps you could clarify your perspective on the lack of availability for Velocity x-fade on the cymbals in light of their being available (and successful) on other percussion instruments? I really think that having the option would be very useful for many of those who value musical control and flexibility over the goal of perfect emulation.

Thanks!
J

[andi]

Hi Jürgen!

I also think that having more systems with different percussion instruments is more reliable than having many instrument changes.

As written before, the only cymbal articulation where Vel XFade makes sense is a roll. Some other articulations would even suffer from Vel XFade as you would sometimes hear two attacks.

Anyway, here is how you can incorporate CC11 for the cymbals.

1. Load the sound set with the Sound Set Editor
2. Go to the Programs page
3. Click on Cymbals
4. Change Volume type to "Expression"
5. Change Attack type to "NoteOnVelocity"
6. Save the sound set

Best,
Andi

[zentrumsounds]

Hi Andi,

I'm having some real difficulties getting the percussion mapping to function correctly in Sibelius. I have added  the recent Sound Set Pack. I am presuming this updates the xml files and updates the VSL House Style. I have worked with this in the past successfully but now am really struggling and frankly finding myself yet again spending precious days trying to make Sibelius function seamlessly with VSL. 

I seem not to be able to get many of the patches to map from Sibelius. I have experimented with cymbals and drums. For instance in the snare drum patch, snare off and rimshot seems to not trigger given the commands indicated in the manual. I've looked in the SSE and the mapping seems fine. So no idea where things are falling apart.

Also, I managed to get the cresendo described above to work successfully in the past but have now spent an entire day struggling to insert a functioning crescendo cymbal into a score. I'm really lost at this stage. Has something changed with more recent sound sets? I really fail to see what I am doing wrong but any guidance would be appreciated. None of the techniques that have worked in the past work any longer. 

Help much appreciated.

 

Juergen 

[andi]

Hello Juergen!

Your problems can have different reasons. Please make sure that all things fit. (Sibelius instrument, Sound Set, Program on the Manual Sound Sets page, VI Preset).

If you need further help, please send some more detailed information.
- Which Sibelius instrument(s) in your score don't switch correctly.
- Which sound set do you use?
- What program did you apply on the Manual Sound Sets page?
- Which VI preset did you load?

I'm not sure if these problems are of public interest. You can always reach us at support@vsl.co.at

Best regards,
Andi

[zentrumsounds]

Hi Andi,

Thanks for the response. I have not had the opportunity to solve the problem (had to put VSL perc. to the side as my timeline for music delivery was too tight). However I suspect that the problem may have to do with the very many different SOUND ID's that are on option within Sibelius. I will I think need to return to the configuration and slowly try every sound id... Do i by andy chance also need to install the Sibellius SOundset installer on the server machine or is this just an installer required for the host software running sibelius?

Thanks,

 

Juergen 

[andi]

Hello Juergen!

You will have to load the VI presets that come with the VSL Soundset Installer on the slave computer. So you can either run the VSL Soundset Installer on your slave computer or copy your VSL Custom Data/Sibelius folder from your master computer to your slave computer. The sound sets can only switch articulations correctly, if the corresponding VI presets are loaded.

Best,
Andi

[zentrumsounds]

Hi Andi,

Quick question:

(THough first off - I finally had some time to sort things out. I think that one of the issues is that there were quite a few choice in the Soundset choices and perhaps I had chosen an instrument which whilst named say "Cymbals", was not indeed the VSL version of that soundset. Not really sure but eventually it started functioning as required.)

 

The question is: for snare B (the one with the Brushes), the optimizing playback percussion manual states that in order to trigger the rim shot, BOTH the word rim AND the word 1 are required. IS there an order to this? Do I need to enter these in a specfic manner? I can't seem to get these to trigger at present anyway...

 

Thanks!

[andi]

Hi Juergen!

I just checked. The rim shot for Snare B works as described in the manual with "rim" and "1" here. Simply assign both Technique Text commands to the same note. Make sure to have the right instrument in your score ("Snare Drum"). It will not work on a Percussion staff.

Best regards,
Andi

[zentrumsounds]

THanks for the reply Andi.

I'm not sure what you mean about not using a percussion staff. Inserted the snare drum using the add instrument command and choosing "unpitched percussion/Snare Drum (though there are three in my library... two both called snare drum and a third called snare drum five lines)". I am using one of the single line ones. This is of course a percussion staff right?

Two additional questions... one directly related: When using Tam Series B I choose the Sibelius preset TAM Series A+B L2 for my Vienna Instruemt. I want to use Series B 85". However when I insert the command roll or trem I do not hear any results. I do notice howeve that the matrix chooses the unoccupied note C6 for the roll. This note IS used by Series A only however and not B. In the Percussion Sound Set PDF there does not appear to be any exception made about any of the Tam-tams availing of the roll command... it appear to be universally available. However perhaps this is an error and whilst the roll should be available to all, the Series B patches can't avail of this assignment.

Also... should vienna instruments be responding to BOTH velocity crossfade AND Expression for instruments like the woodwind? When I enter PPP or PP for the flute for example my volumes are almost inaudible. I think my strings do not respond to the expression CC whilst most other instruments DO (in addition to Vel X-Fade)

Thanks,

Juergen 

[andi]

Hi Juergen!

The Sibelius instrument you are using is ok. I ment that it should be called "Snare Drum" (which it is) and not "Percussion". Another possible reason why it doesn't work at your place would be that some commands (like "rim") only work with the "Vienna Symphonic Library" House Style loaded.

Tam-tam tremolo is only available for Tam A. I should add that information to the manual.

If you load the VI presets for Sibelius, instruments will never react to velocity AND Expression. This would create double dynamics and is the reason why pp is very soft at your place. You can find mor about this in the "Optimizing Sibelius Playback" manual, page 18.
http://www.vsl.co.at/en/MyDownloads/Notation_Related

Best,
Andi

[zentrumsounds]

Hi Andi,

Thanks for the numerous insights.

I think I managed to find the problem with the rimshot. There are three Snare Drums in my library! I had chosen the wrong one. However they were all labeled snare drum and only by looking at the Sound ID designation within the House Settings Drum Mapping and cross referencing the required Sound ID in SSE was I able to decipher my error... So, many thanks with the pointers.

Would it be difficult to enable roll on all the tams? It seems a very common articulation and though A can provide the mapping in Sibelius at present A is a rather large version not well suited to the smaller ensemble sound. Any chance of a remap to accomodate this?

An issue I'm experiencing also: I'm not getting a response to the command portato or the tenuto articuation marking on the keypad for my woodwinds. I want to trigger the Portato Short/Rep Portato articulations which are of course all located at X axis C#1. The manual indicates both the Staff Text marking portato and the tenuto symbol will trigger these. I see the correct Sound ID in the Playback Dictionary for both triggering +portato but looking at the SSE Editor for Wind High (i.e. Flute) I do not see any entry for +portato. Therefore perhaps I have something misloaded or this articulation entry is not loaded into the Woodwind.xml Soundset.

One other question based on the Expression fader. As you mentioned my problem regarding both expression and Vel X-Fade have been solved by your suggestion to load the proper presets... (I had for some reason loaded an earlier customised version thereof). Should these be left at 100 or at 127. I want to ensure that the balance of instruments is fully controlled via the MIRx Natural Volume (which btw is an absoloutly wonderful facilty that takes almost ALL the worry about orchestrational mixing decisions). I DO find that the brass is a little weak though compared to say the solo strings... but perhaps this is correct. At any rate the fff in the trumpet should in my opinion obliterate the sound of a violin... I find it does not though.

Many thanks Andi... 

Juergen

[andi]

Hello Juergen!

Tam rolls have only been recorded for Tam A (and for the XXL Tamtam which is included in the Elements collection).

Portato and tenuto work fine here. The Sound ID +portato has been replaced by +legato.staccato since Sibelius 7. Maybe that's why it doesn't work properly at your place. I would try to change the Sound ID to "+legato.staccato" for the dictionary entries portato and if you want tenuto and the tenuto articulation sign.

As far as the relations of volumes are concerned, I would always trust my ears. ;-)

Best regards,
Andi

[zentrumsounds]

Changing the Sound ID as suggested works! Thanks. 

Are there any other changes implemented in 7 which might affect a stubborn advocate of Sibelius 7?

Ear trusting in progress...

Juergen 

[andi]

I'm not sure about other relevant changes from Sibelius 6 to Sibelius 7 as far as playback with our instruments is concerned. At the moment there are none that come to my mind.

Best,
Andi