@Stephane Collin said:

- the vst instruments and effects are not professionnally useable, they can't compare to VSL, Waves, Fabfilter, Relab, Native Instruments, etc.

Can't fully agree here. The older synth plugins of course aren't anything particularly noteworthy, but on the other hand, Padshop (Pro) is a pretty powerful, accessible and extremely fun granular synth.

The new algorhythmic reverb - REVelation - is actually a very nice and smooth sounding reverb. It's one of those cases where stuff gets totally overlooked because everyone seems to assume that if it isn't 3rd party, tthere must be something inherently low-quality about it that disqualifies it from any serious use.

Reverence, the convolution reverb, of course lacks all the bells and whistles far more expensive dedicated plugins come with, but for what it is, it absolutely delivers.

Magneto 2, the reincarnation of their old "tape" saturation plugin, is also a surprisingly good sounding plugin that deserves a closer look.

The cubase stock EQ is everything a stock digital EQ should be. It's clean, neutral and pretty accurate, and comes with all essential parameters and filter types. The only thing I'd criticize is the limited number of bands. The same is true for the stock compressor - it does exactly what a neutral, digital compressor should do.  Even the maximizer is perfectly fine as long as you don't push it too hard.

It of course cannot be the purpose of stock "working horse" plugins to cater to the whole phantasy and marketing of the "analog mojo". They're bread and butter tools, and are there to do what they're supposed to do.

Don't get me wrong. I do really like the FabFilterEQ and the compressor. I like the Supercharger GT by Native Instruments, the Steven Slate and Waves tape sims ... I had the opportunity to work with some plugins from the Vienna Suite and I was really impressed. Some of those products are just extremely convincing in terms of utility and options, others provide that certain tasty "extra" flavor that can be very attractive. Often times, the latter are also formidable projection surfaces for the placebo phenomena us audio people unfortunately seem to be very prone to ... 😊

It's always great to have options and more stuff to work with. But I can't agree that the stock plugins in Cubase aren't professionaly usable - I actually think one can achieve convincing results with them just fine.

@Stephane Collin said:

- the vst instruments and effects are not professionnally useable, they can't compare to VSL, Waves, Fabfilter, Relab, Native Instruments, etc.

It's always great to have options and more stuff to work with. But I can't agree that the stock plugins in Cubase aren't professionaly usable - I actually think one can achieve convincing results with them just fine.

 

What about there sampler player, is it as good or better than the EXS24 ? do they have a big library ? do they have part of big libraries like the EXS24 have basic articulations of VSL

@Cyril said:

What about there sampler player, is it as good or better than the EXS24 ? do they have a big library ? do they have part of big libraries like the EXS24 have basic articulations of VSL

That's a very good question!
Cubase doesn't come with a sampler. Steinberg has their own software sampler, HALion 5, which is powerful and way more up to date than the EXS24, but it's somewhere in the KONTAKT price range and I'd say if one plans to spend money on a professional software sampler, they might as well go with KONTAKT.

Cubase comes with HALion Sonic SE, which is the watered-down version of HALion Sonic 2, which is the watered-down version of HALion 5. 😊 It's basically like a synth workstation. You can edit and layer patches, but can't import your own audio and create own instruments and things like that. It does have a huge library, but I never really worked with it, just played around - for "serious" work, you end up using your dedicated, high quality libraries and instruments anyway.

A lot of it is very Yamaha Motif in character IMO. There's surprisingly fun and good sounding stuff in there and then also stuff that reinvokes your worst general MIDI nightmares from the year dot. It's OK for what it is and there's probably even material in there I might end up using for something if I ever had the time and desire to rummage through those tons of presets, but sound collections of this type are hardly the major selling points for any DAW.

I have Logic and since last Year Cubase 7.5 / now 8. I think Stephan never REALLY used the Cubase Stock Plug ins/ gave them a Chance. Steinberg has the best ideas compared with the other developers. In the past 2 years they came with great Compressors, Reverbs, Multiband-Transient Deisgner (GREAT IDEA!!!), Brickwall Limiter, Quadra Fuzz 2 (sounds really well), the Voxengo Curve EQ... and and and ... Really a lot. And they can compare with others! Even with 3rd Party Developers. Pad Shop is really cool too ... I agree. The VSL Plug ins are good, but they could Need a feature-refreschment after all the time ... I miss parallel compression-possibilities (built in) ... quite a time saver in these days and most wanted by Producers. I use and like the VSL Plugs too and i use for example U-he's PRESSWERK (which sounds PHATT but is coloring the sound quite a lot). There are always Features that you will miss even in 3rd Party Plug Ins. This Weekend I bought Halion 5 regarding to the Valentine's Special Offer. And Yes ... Halion is (compared to the EXS ...) a BATTLE-SHIP. My Conclusion: I left Logic behind and went with Steinberg. I costs of course more than Logic. But you don't have to buy a mac and you really have everything you need for production. Of course the Classical Content of Halion is not as good as VSL, and of course the Drummers are not BFD 3 ... But all in all the Sound Content is great.

Well I have been using Logic for ages, but two years ago I started to look for a new DAW. There were several things I didn't like in Logic and still don't like. First there is the Piano Roll editor. Sometimes it looses focus and when you open it it's nowwhere near the timeline. Only one Controller lane at the time. Iterative Quantize is lacking and in Logic X the colors gone black. The mixer can't be designed to your own liking unless you create tracks for all channels. Obviously the lack of KS's management together with the limitted capabillity of the multiinstrument paradigm in conjunction with VEPro slaves on remote computers is really bad.

One thing I think Logic is doing better than anyother DAW is dealing with latency. On my Mac it's still better than Cubase.

So I tried Digital Performer 8, a really great app. but the whole concept was nevertheless to much for me. But the number of things you can customize is breathtaking.

I also tried Studio One and also found it to be very good and intuitive, but I don't think it will ever come to work with my MC Control ;-(

Then Pro Tools 11. It's very good and stable the midi-editor has some pretty nice features, that let's you select which part you want to work with, without leaving the editor, but it handles VI's (espically BFD3, which I use all the time) very bad.

So back to Cubase 8. It works well with remote macs with VEPro, it has a great midi editor, it can be customized to a certain degree, and you can count on it to be updated.

I think if you want to build a really huge template Cubase 8 or DP8 is the best alternatives.

Before I got going with VE Pro, the latency with Cubase on a Mac was just too much. I mean with virtual instruments. So I bought Logic and Digital Performer.

A whole new window for each controller in Logic makes that a real no-go for virtual instruments; I use a single piano roll window set up to individually edit parts, all parts/event in one editor. I have quite a number of controller setups that correspond with how I deal with particular instruments or types of instruments. I do a lot of controller editing. So in terms of how I work with MIDI parts, there is no comparison really.

Another thing is I hate guessing at tempo in order to begin, and making a choice and a grid that is static behind that. Cubase has warp time, which means I start by improvising freely with no grid or preconception to be concerned about. Then, according to the idea that happens, I start defining bars and the modus operandi is to drag one of the extant barlines (that I have had zero interest in, as a beginning) to where I want it.
In the 'key editor' or piano roll, one can define every subdivision down to your Quantize selection as a tempo point.

I remember back at Cubase SX2 a tutorial I'd found explaining this. It showed it done to an audio event, a popular rock tune. And it showed the resultant BPMs in flux. A very steady rock backbeat but the tempo breathed as does life. This was a gigantic eye-opener. Now, I have seen people that worked in Logic that can't be slave to the grid and they simply make music ignoring it. I was doing most things like that, but I have to say when I'm arranging, and today I'm arranging before I start, I want to have barlines and beat grid to make life simpler. But the grid follows my time, my sense of time.

Then there are complex and subtle things I have internalized so I'm not _thinking_ while I improvise that I can investigate and explore having a solid pulse bases to work from. Tuplets/nested tuplets and crossing the bar; metrical modulations from this in the time of that previous pulse. The "tempo track" is a very convenient and brilliant interface. Logic's doesn't do this for me at all.

But for VE Pro usage, Cubase has the VST3 so I have all the MIDI ports I like which means less instances obviously and no "Event Input" which IMO is a giant PITA.

 

I don't have any actual downside things to say. I did; Cubase does not do Core Audio directly, there is a translation 'CoreAudio2 ASIO.bundle' which would seem to be the factor accounting for latency that's just too high. Right now I have a workflow with VE Pro where I can play in parts fairly reliably with 1024 in the buffer.
A matter of defining record latency compensation. A bit tricky but it does more or less obviate the problem for me.

Digital Performer user here. Pros: Chunks (multiple sequences in one project that can all sync to one video). Very stable. OSX and Windows versions. Clean and well organized interface. Looks like a Mac program due to it's good use of GUI concepts. Feature set all around is very strong for film composers. But is a very strong audio DAW. Conductor track. Conductor track can be turned off in favor of tap tempo, external sync and other. Mulitple ways to do the same thing which allows a level of customized workflow that I haven't seen in another DAW. MIDI tracks are seperate from Instrument tracks (some see this as a negative, an old way of working that's never been fixed. But it's not. DP is always in multi-timbral mode). MIDI Device Groups (allows you to assign multiple MIDI tracks to an instrument track. Track Folders Track Grouping Recorded audio can be written to another drive. All MIDI CC editing is done in one lane and it's easy to hide CCs you don't need to see. Video syncing is extremely accurate and powerful. VEP has a MAS version that supports 48 MIDI ports. Offline bouncing works with MAS version of VEP!!! Markers can be ranked by importance. Find Tempo feature that helps you find a tempo that best matches a list of locked markers which helps when scoring to video when marking "hits". One click disabling of instrument and audio tracks to save CPU. Window Sets with assignable keystrokes. Measures can be adjusted to line up with waveform peaks or anything else. Video's audio can be bused to aux tracks and effects applied, or video's audio track can be imported and put into an audio track for analysis. The sequence tempo can be altered to match the imported audio track. Built in partial Vocalign program. Any MIDI CC can be edited and automated in CC lane. MIDI plugins. MIDI can be edited in Tracks, Sequnce, MIDI, Event List, notation, Drum and Quickscripe windows. Rewire support works both ways. Pre Gen mode (when plugins are bypassed, hidden behind windows or closed they pre render and take a load off the CPU). All keystrokes are customizable. Can use MAS, AU and VST plugins. Bouncing and Freezing - Offline bouncing, Track Freezing. Printing of effects or effects as inserts (destructive and non destructive). Vracks - Allows you to share all you're instrument tracks including VEP across all sequences. Vracks can be disabled with a single click. Mixer snapshots. Themes Unlimited Takes per track. No dongle. Can use on two computers. If added to a third, one gets disabled. Tracks can be moved and re-ordered in any window including the mixer. Looping, auto rewind, auto stop, auto punch in and overdub mode are easy to enable and use. Free 30 day unlimited demo Much much more (I'll add more later) Cons: 84 useful plugins, some are great, but not as many fancy plugins as other DAWs (I don't use built in plugins that much anyway). Expression Maps/Note Expressions would be welcome. The notation editor needs updating. It's sluggish and needs a facelift. Not as powerful as one would expect. If you want a "cute" DAW DP might seem like your father's DAW but several of the new themes give DP a modern look. Bottom Line: Everything in DP allows for multiple "takes". In other words, you can have multiple sequences, multiple takes, multiple mix scenes, multiple vracks, and all of your sequences can be brought into a macro sequencer called the song window, where sequences can be sequenced! Or they can be arranged into a playlist. All of this syncs with video (1080p, 1920 and 4k video support might be available now). In my opinion DP has more features than most other DAWs and has had them a long time now which makes DP a very stable program. Closest DAW to DP is probably Cubase, although there are some differences and I find DP easier on the eyes and more flexible. Good luck.

I've owned many DAWs throughout the years starting with Cakewalk in the early 1990s. Currently, I'm using Logic Pro X and Digital Performer 8 (DP 8).  I have to agree with the above poster regarding DP 8 and its features and customability. I'm relatively new to DP 8 but the more I explore its capabilities, the more I enjoy using it. It is HIGHLY customized. Also, its ability to have multiple takes and multiple sequences (the two are distinct) per project, makes for a phenomenal film scoring tool.  Additionally, DP 8 generates its own streamers and punches which I have not found in other DAWs yet.  (I learned film composition over 33 years ago using a flatbed movieola. I learned how to make my own streamers and punches which are nice visual aides in hitting cues. Been happily using the streamers and punches generaged by DP 8 for my modest film scoring needs.)

The problem that I have with DP 8 is that I that it chokes on my modest 55+ instrument orchestral templet.  It's fine when a small number of virtual instruments are being used. However, I have yet to figure out how to NOT make it choke for the larger orchestral templet (using a few different instrumental libraries housed within a couple of different sample players).

Logic Pro X, on the other hand, handles the same (modest) 55+ instrument orchestral templet without issue. With the exception of the inevitable CPU spikes during keyswitching (but not fatally and not to 100% usage), the CPU meters in Logic Pro X show that all 16 threads (to my 8-core Mac Pro) are evenly used and hover around 15% to 20% usage. This confirms to what is a wonderfully stable system.

I wish that I had the stability found with Logic Pro X and DP 8's features!!!

Enter VEPro 5. . . 

In a "master/slave" computers set-up, DP 8 is allowed to shine, thanks to the newest version VEPro 5! I let my aging yet trusty Early 2009 Mac Pro handle the instrumental libraries with VEPro 5/MIR Pro and let my younger and capable Late 2012 MacMini handle DP 8's sequencing and film composition strength.  I could not be happier!

Edited to add: It is nice to read that people are enjoying Cubase. It seems that newer versions of Cubase are relatively stable. Good! Again, this is nice to read. I used to own an earlier version of Cubase duriing my PC days. That freakin' program gave me headaches, nightmares and ulcers. Cubase is what led me back to Logic (I still have the floppy disks to PC-based Logic when it was owned by eMagic) and into the world of Mac computers (which are just "OK").

@Edward Fiebke said:

 Also, its ability to have multiple takes and multiple sequences (the two are distinct) per project, makes for a phenomenal film scoring tool.  

It is possible to handle multi takes since Logic 8 and it has been improved since

• Logic Pro X: Record multiple audio takes - Apple Support

  https://support.apple.com/kb/PH12965

   

  Aug 27, 2013 - You can record multiple audio versions, or takes, in quick succession. Later, you can select the best parts from several takes and combine ...

• Logic: Multi takes and composite tracks - WikiAudio

  en.wikiaudio.org/Logic:_Multi_takes_and_composite_tracks

   

  Jan 29, 2012 - Logic:Multi takes and composite tracks. To record multiple takes to a logic audio track and then compile them follow these steps. Set the input of ...

• Using Logic's Takes Feature For Comping - Sound On Sound

  https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct08/.../logicworkshop_1008.htm

  Using Logic's Takes Feature For Comping - Sound On Sound

   

  Takes are a neat way to manage multiple recordings, but many Logic users still want to work in the way they did under earlier versions of Logic. This was often ...

  ‎ - ‎To Begin At The Beginning... - ‎That Sync'ing Feeling?

• Making Tracks

  Apple Logic Studio Pro 8 - multi take - YouTube

  www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yjk-WZztMLY

  Sep 18, 2007 - Uploaded by FgFoto

  Apple Logic Studio Pro - multi take This is one of the apple videos on the best audio suite on the market!!!

   

•  

• ▶ 13:35

  ▶ 13:35

  www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S6UYiZe-Ro

  Jan 30, 2012 - Uploaded by totaltraining

  Personalizing Logic Professional Templates for Common Projects Multi-take Recording Audio Effects ...

   

Cyril - I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you're a Logic Pro fan! LOL! I am, too. Out of all of the DAWs owned, I've been using Logic Pro the longest. This does not mean that I aware of, or use, all of its functionalities. To be honest, I use the same few templets over and over and over again. Rarely do I explore it deeper, unfortunately. But it gets my modest projects done just fine. Logic Pro is rock solid for me. It has been for a while!

I did not know about it ability for multi-takes.

I will explore this further, now that you brought it to my (our) attention. Thank you.

Still, DP 8 does a nice job too, especially when paired with VEPro 5 in a "master/slave" computer situation. I am not "dissing" Logic Pro when I say this. Being relatively new to DP 8, I've grown to appreciate its capabilities that I've learned about it so far. It really is a great tool for film composition. So is Logic Pro X, for that matter. (Disclaimer: Despite holding a degree in Film Composition, I am not a professional film scorer, making a living off this craft. Videography and film scoring to my own projects are important, time-consuming, hobbies of mine, though.) 

I have both DAWs. . . both get used. I'm still a happy camper.

Edited to add: Each DAW has their strengths and their weaknesses. Each DAW has their own "cheer-leaders" and their own "critics". The bottom line is this: If the DAW works for you, and you're happy, that is all that matters. 😉

For those interested in Logic Pro X, this set of tutorials is one of the best resources I've seen.

 

How well dose Cubase handle multiple takes on a MIDI track compared to DP?

 

Michael

@mschmitt said:

How well dose Cubase handle multiple takes on a MIDI track compared to DP? Michael

And as an extension of that question, does Cubase allow tracks that are grouped together (midi or audio) to all switch takes together when one of the grouped tracks is switched to another take. And does Cubase give the option to always keep takes together? Can you suspend groups and hence takes? I'm curious too. DP takes the takes concept pretty far.

Cubase 8 on trial is out now

At the moment I do not have time to test Cubase 8

Has any Logic X user moved or tested it ?

What are your comments ?

Cubase handling of 'takes' pretty extensive, eg:

 

 

 

I used Lgoic on my MAC and Sonar on my PC.

Now I use studio one on both and I am very happy.