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  4. Dimension Strings - Different ways to mix better.

  • Dimension Strings - Different ways to mix better.

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    I am trying to create a Dimension Strings piece, but I am not 100% happy with the sound so far at this stage. I am using VE Pro and MIR Pro. I am trying to create a slow moving piece. Below is the snippet. I am wondering if it has to do with the orchestration/chord voicing. Maybe I need to re-orchestrate it to get a better sound. If any of you hear something in the mix that pops out and is not good please let me know!

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33556625/Music/Nektarios%20-%20Eastern%20Dream%20Snippet.mp3

    Here is the initial part of the chords:

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33556625/Images/chords.jpg

    Thank you!

    -Nektarios
  • DominiqueD
    DominiqueD
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    Hi Nektarios

    As you didn't specify what you don't like about the sound it's difficult to tell whether it's the voicings or the mix. Personally I find the voicings just fine. The mix is a bit dull to my ears though, and on the dark side. I'd try to make it a bit brighter to open up the sound.

    I made a short example (just the beginning of the piece) to show you what I mean. Please disregard the sloppy playing, I just threw it together quickly and didn't spend time cleaning the midi. My standard setup for the Dimension Strings is brighter still than this example, but I didn't want to go over the top.

    Brighter mix

    I hope this helps one way or the other.
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    Thank you Dominique! I like yours much better than my original for sure! Here is my updated one:

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33556625/Music/Nektarios%20-%20Eastern%20Dream%20Snippet%202.mp3

    In the new one I am not sure I like it in the middle. Maybe it's resonance, or too much reverb? 

    Did you use sustain patches? or legato?
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    Here is my orchestration:

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33556625/Images/Orchestration.jpg
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    How did you mix your strings? Did you just EQ them?
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    @nektarios said:

    Here is my orchestration:

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33556625/Images/Orchestration.jpg

     

    Have you tried to tie the repeated notes? The first two chords (Am and F) can sound much more natural if you tie the A and C notes and use the velocity x fade to do a crescendo and diminuendo from one chord to another!

    Listen to the attached file
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    Thank you! I like your example! I see what you mean. Will give it a shot. Just to be sure, when you say tie you mean? Glue them together?
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    @nektarios said:

    Thank you! I like your example! I see what you mean. Will give it a shot. Just to be sure, when you say tie you mean? Glue them together?

     

    Yeah! Sorry for my bad english! I think Tie is for notation program hehehehe
  • N
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    Ok, thanks! No prob!
  • DominiqueD
    DominiqueD

    The legato patch is the only one I used. For mixing, only eq (apart from the reverb of course). Maybe you have an eq-plugin that can "match eqs". This helped me a lot in finding eq settings for the Dimension Strings. I browsed through recordings of a chamber orchestra of my choice to find spots were only one section of the strings is playing. I then used these as reference track, played the same spots with the Dimension Strings and tried to match the sound with eq.

    Just for the sake of completeness, here's my reverb setup (maybe that's of little interest to you as you do have MIR):

    Independence Origami for early reflections (instrument placement in the room).

    Vienna Convolution Reverb Schubert-Saal for the tail.

     

    This new version is on a good way in my opinion. It's less nasal. If you don't mind me saying so, I do like the voicing better in the first version though. I liked how the movement from the first to the second chord was in the middle voices, not the top. In the second version the attention is drawn to the top voice, which maybe isn't what you'd want because it isn't the melody that matters, but the chords. Just personal preference though. Go with what you like better.

     

    I hear what you mean in the middle section, but can't really spot what it is that isn't optimal. Does each section have individual volume curves? It almost sounds a bit too homogenous. Maybe that's part of it.
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    I use a mix of articulation. Dimension is great for this, that's why i bought then. In my example the viola is playing pfp4 and dyn4 and the second violin is playing legato expressivo.
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    Thank you! I also like the first voicing better but changed it as I was not happy with the mix. Your mix sounds exactly how I'd like it to sound honestly. With my first voicing I tend to hear a "brass" sound when there is none really! On the other hand, on your mix, that invisible brass is not there. It leads me to believe maybe there is resonance that needs to be corrected with some EQ.

    The patches I use are mostly sustains with vibrato, non-vibrato, progressive vibrato, etc. with legatos switching through a sequence controller in VIPRO.
  • DominiqueD
    DominiqueD

    Glad you like my mix so much. My Eq-settings are no secret, but since I have different settings for each section and two instances of eq for each it's a bit difficult to share. I try to attach some pictures to show you the settings. As said, there's a first instance of eq with individual settings for each section. Then there's a second instance where all violins have the same settings, and Celli and basses have the same (the violas have no second instance of eq). Maybe this is of some use to you. I'd like to hear if it helps in the middle part.

    Image

    Image

    Image
  • N
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    @Dominique said:

    Glad you like my mix so much. My Eq-settings are no secret, but since I have different settings for each section and two instances of eq for each it's a bit difficult to share. I try to attach some pictures to show you the settings. As said, there's a first instance of eq with individual settings for each section. Then there's a second instance where all violins have the same settings, and Celli and basses have the same (the violas have no second instance of eq). Maybe this is of some use to you. I'd like to hear if it helps in the middle part.

    Thank you sooo much!!! Really appreciate it!!! I will now revert to my original chord voicing and apply your EQ settings. ðŸ˜ŠðŸ˜ŠðŸ˜Š

    Out of curiosity, what do you use for B Violins in Diemnsion Strings? Is it 4 for Violins I, and 4 for Violins II? I ended up using Chamber Strings for my B violns. 
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    I'm demoing that EQ (Equilibrium) at the moment. It's like the Lamborghini of EQ's.
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    Wow, maybe I should give it a shot! 
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    @nektarios said:

    Wow, maybe I should give it a shot! 

    http://dmgaudio.com/products_equilibrium.php

    Demo available. Personally I probably won't buy it, because I'm not EQ-skilled enough to drive it; but I keep playing with the demo because it's pretty awesome.
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    So what features make an EQ a great EQ? Never understood this. I use Epure by Flux. 

    Here is the link: http://www.fluxhome.com/products/plug_ins/epure-v3

    Again, I don't know how to compare them...
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    @nektarios said:

    So what features make an EQ a great EQ? Never understood this. I use Epure by Flux. 

    Here is the link: http://www.fluxhome.com/products/plug_ins/epure-v3

    Again, I don't know how to compare them...

    Full-screen mode; and highly configurable display.

    "Filters include: Coincident, Butterworth, Chebyshev, Bessel, Critical, Legendre, Elliptic, Allpass types"

    Most EQ's don't give you such choices, and you can choose different filter types for different bands.

    It also gives you great control over phase.

    It also models filter-shapes from some classic EQ's.

    I wouldn't know what to do with all those filter choices and control over phase, but I think those would be valuable to skilled engineers. I'm going to check out the classic-EQ emulation next. Maybe a gimmick, or maybe those EQ's are classic for a good reason.
  • DominiqueD
    DominiqueD

    You're welcome, I'm glad that I could help. Personally I think that most current Eqs are up to the task, but I'm no expert. If you have VSL Suite this Eq will be just fine, or the one that comes with your DAW. You really don't need to have Equilibrium to achieve the same sound like in my mix.

    Good to hear that you are going back to the first chord voicings, I really like them. As to my Dimension String setup: I created a template with 10 first violins, 8 second violins, 6 violas, 6 celli, and 4 basses. Each section divided in two subgroups. The additional numbers in the violins come from using different articulations, and a different grouping of players in the first and second violins. So for example, in violins 1 (10 players), I grouped them player 1 to 5 in subsection a, and players 3 to 7 in subsection b. Between these subsections I was careful not to use the same articulations when the same player is used. So, if in the subsection a player 5 plays regular legato, I use perf trill legato from player 5 for the legato in subsection b. That means that even when subsection a and b play together (what they often do), you don't hear the same sample twice. Player five is also used in the subsection b of the second violins (4 players). So I had to be careful to choose a different sample yet for legato. Here I used the legato espressivo on the d string as legato articulation.

    A short example: lets assume I use this template to mock up a short stretch where first violins and second violins play in unison. Player five will then be used thrice (once in violins 1 subsection a, once in violins 1 subsection b, and once in second violins subsection b). Yet all samples will be different, because in each of these subsections a different patch will be triggered from player 5 (the regular legato, the perf trill legato, and the legato espressivo on the d string). So I use the many articulation choices you have in Dimension Strings to bolster up the number of players. It takes some time to make such a template and you have to be careful to always use different patches, but once it's done it's great. Saxer made a similar template and uploaded it on these forums. That's where I got the idea from.