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@brett said:
I wish life didn't work this way but the squeaky wheel gets the oil...After a public prodding in their forum NI finally responded and have claimed they reproduced the issue. I hope it's not a stock response because there was nothing in the email that was particular to my support request but fingers crossed, true to their word it has been reported to the appropriate team.B
Awesome news....I have about given up that this would ever be fixed.
We're in October 14 now and still no progress on this EXT Sync Kontakt bug. I have submitted a video and an audio clip of the issue, as per NI's request. Not sure how it will give them any more data to solve the issue though. Brett's repor is so easy to do and so definitive.
I'm finishing up a short animation project with 6 tempo changes on cuts to picture and eerytime I get a click. So dealing with this is just aweful and so slow.
Brett, has Cubase been adequately informed of this situation? I know I submitted something to them as well a year back.....
Best, Mr Anxiety
Yes...incredibly frustrating that this is not fixed. I am fairly convinced this is VE PROs issue to fix as I am getting gliches with more than just Kontakt. I suspect that this is a VE PRO problem when used with Cubase. Try and do a tempo change with a "ramp" and you can almost see your VE pro computer explode.
Well, I'm actually thinking it is a Cubase (VST) issue in tandem with less than stellar scripting in Kontakt that's our problem. Other DAW users are not commentling about any issues...... Logic and DP, although they use AU not VST plugins.
FYI - A workaround is increasing the buffer size substantially. This can at least get you past tempo jumps..... not sure about ramps though.
It does need to get solved, and someone needs to just admit the problem and offer a solution... Steinberg & NI.
Mr A
@ Mr A - I haven't filed a bug report with Steinberg as I'm quite sure it's a Kontakt bug. There are similar threads I've participated in on VI and NI that seem to suggest this.
@dplmusic - No, it's not a VSL bug. If you try my repro above you'll see that whether or not you host Kontakt in VEP is irrelevent.
I'd love users of other DAWs to report back but although I've posted this repro on the NI forum no one has reported back.
I suspect that VI-heavy film composers are very much in the minority and so are a low priority to NI when it comes to bug fixes. Squeaky wheel gets the oil and there are not enough of us to be squeaky...
This thread is so old that post you are referring to is mine which I forgot I even posted that. I do remember doing some tests and that was obviously what I saw at the time. Kontakt indeed seems to have issues with this. I recently saw this behaviour in another plugin and started to think it might be a VE PRO problem.
it has been sooooo long since I did my original test with Kontakt that maybe someone else can test an instance of Kontakt inside Cubase vs VE PRO to see what the results are. I run a 128 buffer which is important as I know if you run a 256 or higher you might never see this behaviour.
I ran a very quick test and I am not sure if my statement about Kontakt inside Cubase or VE PRO stands true. I just tried Kontakt inside VE PRO and inside Cubase 7.5.20. I palyed a pad sound and had a tempo ramp constantly changing tempo. Kontakt inside Cubase was fine until I turned Kontakt's delays on and then the delays sound like they are frying as they keep up with the tempo constant changes. This is probably what I was hearing when I made the previous post. Kontkat inside VE PRO is a little glitchy at my 128 buffer with 2 VE PRO buffers during the tempo change ramp. Bumping it up to 4 buffers stablizes it and throwing on the Kontakt delays creates the frying sound. So barring the tempo delay FX issue during tempo changes I think Kontakt is probably ok inside Cubase.
However...... most of my giant template is inside VE PRO. I hear glitching at tempo changes on more than just Kontakt in my template. I hear it happen on my piano from Addictave Keys and other plugins as well all hosted in VE PRO. Now there is a fair amount of CPU load across these machines and it does appear that these tempo changes in Cubase cause CPU spikes on the VE PRO machines leading to the glitches.
So......Kontakt definitely behaves better inside Cubase (my previous observation might have been related to the delays in Kontakt....I would have to go back and read my post). I think this is more than JUST a Kontakt issue as I can see this problem happening on a machine that does not have any Kontakt's involved. The common denominator looks more like this is a VE PRO issue in my opinion.
@dlp - no the repro I was referring to was my own. 3rd post down on the 4th page of this thread. Entirely independent of VEP. If you have Komplete it's easy to test. I'd be interested in your results.
tempo changes during host synced delays are always going to be an issue no matter the host / sampler and this is not the problem we are discussing. Check my post and see how you get on
Cheers
Cubase 5.5.3
VE Pro 5.3.13240 [VST 3, x64]
Kontakt 5.3.1.37
OSX.6.8
Tempo Sync'd Soundiron 'Angklung' in Kontakt, tempo ramp in Cubase; can't reproduce any CPU spike particularly and performance didn't suffer.
I chose 'Angklung' as having a kind of involved sequencer. Here, three of its parameters are CC-controlled.
I think I would look at things more specifically such as the particular Kontakt library ['LASS'] and versions of all of the above rather than go with simple correlations. I also see 'delays' as behaving specially...
Guys, it doesn't happen with all instruments but only seems to with particularly complex ones. Maybe it's to do with the degree of scripting but I'm unsure. I chose 'Scarbee Clavinet - Full' for my repro because people are more likely to have NI Komplete rather than, say, Spitfire's Sable library for example. I wanted the simplest repro possible and with only a single instrument than many are likely to have in their libraries.
The point is, that those of us in film & tv that run huge templates are bound to have issues if Kontakt's 'ext' sync to host tempo is engaged. Most do not because they don't have massive templates, or don't use tempo changes, or don't require Kontakt syncing to host tempo. It's simple not an issue for most people which is why NI haven't address this bug after many years.
If I may add, The likelihood of a few different forces at play here is high. As Brett is saying, scripting of a particular Kontakt instrument and buffer size are definite culprits here. Im using a drum loop program with extensive scripting that is undoubtedly creating my issue when playing across tempo jumps with Ext Sync on. And that's without delay or effects even on. Delays chasing tempo changes, abrupt ones, is always going to be problematic, but a sequencer changing a tempo shouldn't have to produce a click or spike in the audio IMO.
And getting NI to offer a solution is the big issue for all of us, especially film/TV composers who use tempo changes all the time!
Mr Anxiety
@brett said:
Guys, it doesn't happen with all instruments but only seems to with particularly complex ones. Maybe it's to do with the degree of scripting but I'm unsure. I chose 'Scarbee Clavinet - Full' for my repro because people are more likely to have NI Komplete rather than, say, Spitfire's Sable library for example. I wanted the simplest repro possible and with only a single instrument than many are likely to have in their libraries.
The point is, that those of us in film & tv that run huge templates are bound to have issues if Kontakt's 'ext' sync to host tempo is engaged. Most do not because they don't have massive templates, or don't use tempo changes, or don't require Kontakt syncing to host tempo. It's simple not an issue for most people which is why NI haven't address this bug after many years.
This did not need ramp changes to repro it, and the project uses high latency. I don't need to use synced delay in that instrument, fortunately. I've never seen the likes of what happened, I had to quit Cubase.
I don't think that is particularly heavily scripted compared to many things I use that do not have any problem... synced delays is so not me which may be why I don't encounter this.
I used to think I was alone on this issue until some recent digging unearthed a multitude of composers with the same issues. I have since submitted
two tickest to NI for which I have received only the auto-reply to which you all are no doubt familiar. It's truly a shame that NI hasn't addressed this
major issue. Tempo changes are at the root of what a sequencer can excel at as well as being crucial in a film composers tool chest. Here's what
I have discovered in trying to find a workaround or anything that might get this thing to work. First off, this is definitely corolated with CPU usage
and buffer size in addition to project complexity. They all really tie together ultimately in that the CPU can either handle it or not. I concur that this
issue can happen outside of VE Pro as I can get it to happen when K5 is hosted in Nuendo. As stated earlier, on very small projects this does not
present itself as there is evidently enough CPU overhead to compensate for what I believe to be bloated code in K5. Again, ramps are way more
troublesome and can bring my 12core Mac, with almost all SSDs, to it's knees. IMHO it's not the amount of playing tracks that matter, rather how
many tracks are in the given project - regardless if they are playing or not. Also, I don't believe this occurs in K4. I was testing yet again and was not
able to get K4 to fail which I think is good news and I have made NI aware of this. I'm afraid this won't help any of us but perhaps as some have
stated if we film and T.V. composers keep pressing maybe NI will fix this. In the meantime any useful workarounds are all we can hope for.
FWIW, I almost never post but this problem is so glaring and doesn't occur with other plugins e.g. Omnisphere, RMX, U-he, Waves, UAD, etc.,
that I felt compelled to jump in the fray.
Mac 12core (2 x 2.93 GHz 6-core Intel Xenon) OSX 10.8.5, 64GB ram, Nuendo 6.x, 2 x 480 3GB/s SSD, 2 x 480 6GB/s SSD, 1 2TB 7200rpm
I can confirm nasty breakups with a single ramp tempo change in Cubase for SonicCouture Broken Wurli, vs a jump tempo change which is fine.
This project I'm going to exploit this particular instrument with sync delays, actually. But it is the ramp in this case. This is with very little else going on and what is is pretty negligible. Very high latency and I expect to have some wiggle room with a lot loaded, but this ramp can't happen, period.
I can work around using ramp changes but just reporting, I doubt it's a single instrument but Kontakt 5 talking to Cubase.