@Beat Kaufmann said:

... I ... want to be free in adjusting the depth for each instrument... to my taste (by mixing the conventional way).

But as your Chambers don't allow you to do that, you overlook the obvious advantage provided by DS in that respect.

1. I could route every VI to another output within my DAW if necessary... (16 outputs, with my everday AudioInterface / 192 Outputs with my madi system).

You're talking about routing VI's separately, but I'm talking about routing violins separately. I can put the 8 Dimension violins in different positions in a virtual room (not MIR, since you don't want that), and they all reflect off the walls at different times, since they're in different positions, and the left and right mics in a virtual Decca-tree capture the sounds at different times. You cannot do this with Chamber, even if you route your VI's separately.

@andyjh said:

It seems odd that no one seems to have grasped what Beat is asking for here,

I grasp it, but haven't found the time to meet his demands. This thread is still pretty new. I'm not so pessimistic that Beat's demands won't be met eventually.

@BachRules said:

You cannot do this with Chamber, even if you route your VI's separately.

OK then, my dear, let's listen to such an orchestra with individual placed players. 

Take A/B, ORTF, a DeccaTree, NOS, DIN, EBS, Surroound...  for me only counts the result.

I want to come as close as possible to those real recordings. And I thought that the DS could go a step further. 

But all the Demos don't show a really step foreward. Quite the oposit, I don't like the sound (MIR?) and when the are syncronized the sound not realy how an ensemble.

But I'm repeating my self - words words words but obviously no demo.

@andyjh said:

How ever it did take a long time to do this, and when you do a similar thing with playing once and using VI Pro to randomize timing for each player, it also gets close to the same effect.

Hi Andy

This is really a good hint.

Even if I am a trained user I still need 1day for 1 minute of music (average).

So this means that I will use a lot more time for eventually a bit more reality.

Thanks, and yes it seems that nobody had the patience to produce a piece which obviously uses a much more effort.

Best

Beat

@Another User said:

when you send the same MIDI data to all 8 Dimension violins, each violin gets triggered with different "Humanize" settings. In other words, the time-randomization and tuning randomization are different for each violin. That could be considered "individual triggering"....

Greetings,

I share Beat's position on DS, and would like to hear a demo which depicts clearly the aforementioned aspects of the product. Most demos I found worked in disservice for DS, because I believe they were made with the intention of showcasing its overall sound. However, more experienced users usually expect a technical demonstration, and I think that is lacking in sound form. 

@Beat Kaufmann said:

... Can some body publish a DS-Demo ...

A) ...which shows all 8 violins individual triggered or even played with individual articulations?

Can you recommend any particular pieces where Bach scored 8 different articulations for 8 violins playing in unison? If I understand your request correctly? If not Bach, then Beethoven?

@Tralen said:

Greetings,

I share Beat's position on DS, and would like to hear a demo which depicts clearly the aforementioned aspects of the product. Most demos I found worked in disservice for DS, because I believe they were made with the intention of showcasing its overall sound. However, more experienced users usually expect a technical demonstration, and I think that is lacking in sound form. 

Hi Tralen,

maybe this video is helpful for you. (the part from TC 4:20 to 5:30)

http://www.vsl.co.at/videoplayer_mp4.asp?ID=304

best

Herb

@BachRules said:

Can you recommend any particular pieces where Bach scored 8 different articulations

No restrictions. Bach, Mozart, Haydn what ever... 

Beat

I'm not about to make anything that sounds close to that, and few here are, regardless of their choice of libraries; and you already knew that. So I'm not going to try to compare to that, but if you want to post a short, simple example of Chamber violins (or some other Chamber instrument, but just one, please), sticking to one and only one articulation, I'll try to make a DS version of what you post. Otherwise, it's going to be a question of who's better at programming articulations, which seems irrelevant for all present intents and purposes.

Dear Bachrules, thanks a lot for your great help for me to get a DS demo.

The thread here shows that obviously even power users don't use this "multiple-option" because it seems to need a lot of additional work.

So your effort is very kind, BachRules, and you all who wanted to help me till now. But, nobody should produce an extra demo for me.

So I suggest to wait until the end of this weekend and when nobody has a demo - then nobody has one.

Could be that G. Bacos will produce once one one - now with the basses inclusive.

I still believe in a huge undiscovered potential of DS - showed within some seconds in the DS-Video...

So let us being patient ...

Beat

@Beat Kaufmann said:

Dear Bachrules, thanks a lot for your great help for me to get a DS demo.

The thread here shows that obviously even power users don't use this "multiple-option" because it seems to need a lot of additional work.

So your effort is very kind, BachRules, and you all who wanted to help me till now. But, nobody should produce an extra demo for me.

So I suggest to wait until the end of this weekend and when nobody has a demo - then nobody has one.

Could be that G. Bacos will produce once one one - now with the basses inclusive.

I still believe in a huge undiscovered potential of DS - showed within some seconds in the DS-Video...

So let us being patient ...

Beat

This thread shows that people lacking Dimension Cellos -- even power-users / articulation-extremists lacking Dimension Cellos -- are unable to achieve such a wide cello sound as this:

[url]https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ZYXb_HdIQhVEFEdXE2UVRnbTg/edit?usp=sharing[/url]

Maybe Beat can produce something comparable with the Chamber Cellos. Let's wait until the end of this weekend and if nobody achieves such width using only Chamber Cellos - then nobody achieves it. I'll wait patiently.

@Beat Kaufmann said:

But, dear BachRules, I am since 1975 in the midi business

What was it like using MIDI a decade before it was invented?

@John Melcher said:

That's pretty amazing, since the MIDI specification was published in 1983.

Hi Mr. Detective

OK, you are right, nevertheless I bought my first Roland Synthesizer in 1975. It was an SH-7 (which came on the market in 1973) and of course it was controlled by Voltage (CV).

Of course I only wanted to say that I'm an "old hand" in the synthetic sound and sample world. [:@]

Give us a link for listening to your "much-more-realistic-orchestra", please. So we have at least one demo even if it is not quite the one I like to have.

Beat

Hello there,

It was only very recently that my equipments allow me to use intensively Dimension String. Until now, I mainly used it from time to time as a simple layer for Orchestral String (to give it more depth or granularity).

I took about an hour to do this short demo quickly. Sorry Beat, but I didn't create separate tracks for each cellos because I have other things to do this weekend [:$]. Anyway, you will find that the sound is very different and very interesting.

I agree with BachRules when he wrote :

You're talking about routing VI's separately, but I'm talking about routing violins separately. I can put the 8 Dimension violins in different positions in a virtual room (not MIR, since you don't want that), and they all reflect off the walls at different times, since they're in different positions, and the left and right mics in a virtual Decca-tree capture the sounds at different times. You cannot do this with Chamber, even if you route your VI's separately.

Important note: I used a MIDI track that Beat made ​​with Chamber orchestra (Grieg Prelude from Holberg suite). To make a true comparison of both collection's musicality, it would have been nessary to take time to adjust velocities, legato transition, etc. In addition, some patches are not present in both collections (Tzigane, for example; the passage with Marcato at the end is wrong; sorry). Finally, to do justice to DS it would have been necessarely to use articulations on one string (G, A, etc.).

I put a slight reverb (that of VIPRO). I obviously did not use MIR here! (I think Beat is severe [;)]  )  In fact, MIR offers in my opinion tools I need to build accurate spatial perception. Like any tools, they can be used with "bon goût" or not.

I see that the thread has lengthened since I started to work! I think we should do our best to maintain our good humor in all our discussions on this forum.  [A] 

I hope this little demo will still be useful:

https://app.box.com/s/5x9xrjc3wqjw3e2srgm0

[and sorry again for my bad english…]

Claude B.

Thanks for posting the cello comparison Claude. I've agonised over this for ages as I have Solo, Chamber and Dimension Strings and looked for every way to get the best out of them all, singularly and in combination. More words I know, but I've settled on blending Solo and DS for a Chamber size template using Solo as the first chair. My reasoning:

1 I find the timbre of DS on their own to sound a little "squashed", particularly the Cellos. Putting Solo Strings in front of them restores some of the up front, raw sonic characteristic while DS provides the complexity and thickening. Note on MIR - Solo and DS seem to behave very differently in MIR, I need to set Solo much closer to the mic to get the blend.

2 With this combination I can build each section in two or three passes (Solo first chair then DS) to blur the attack and dynamics, a critical feature in giving the illusion of realism in my view.

3 With this set up I can move freely in and out of divisi as required.

There are parts of each library I particularly love (i.e.Chamber Cellos and Basses,  DS Violins, Violas and Basses, Solo Violin and Cello).

Thanks for a very interesting topic, if I can find some time to make an exposed track with my set up I'll do it.

Claude that's a nice demo.  Though I thought you might have used the performance trills on the last one, it shows how much more complex the Dimension sound is.  The Chamber cellos sound like great but uniform ensemble samples but the Dimension have that individual player quality impossible with ensemble sampling.  

The purpose of Dimension is not to replace the older libraries for single line performance, but  to allow free use of divisi and unison, as well as enriching the overall string timbres of the various VSL libraries.  However, they can be used as shown here and other recordings as the only string sounds in a smaller ensemble.  Also, it is possible to double the sound with transpose/pitch shift for larger and even more complex sounds. 

The use of individual players vs. an entire ensemble of Dimension is an interesting question.  I have a tendency to want each player totally separate on his own MIDI channel.  However, I have noticed how with the great new humanize and tuning preset functions in VI you can load all individual players in MIR (or other reverb though MIR is better for these orchestral sounds)  and give them the same channel for a single line and they truly behave exactly like individual players.  i have been experimenting extensively with humanize in both the MIDI and the corresponding VI instruments and trying to push them as far as I can into the complexities of tuning and timing one hears in live ensembles.  This is why i am so enthusiastic about the Dimension instruments because they have that exponential increase in complexity.  Though the other VSL string libraries are still as essential because they provide a starting point that you can add to with Dimension. 

I did that on my Vertigo demo -   http://www.vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=1&DemoID=5980   which combined the Dimension violins in 6 part divisi, with a "concertmaster" Solo violin and then in the big tutti at the end the Appassionata.

@Beat Kaufmann said:

... But, nobody should produce an extra demo for me....

I wouldn't be doing it for you; I'd be doing it for other readers holding an unprejudiced interest in hearing Dimensions's capabilities; and I want to do it; but if you don't want me to show Dimension in a good light in this thread, I'll save it for a different thread.

Sorry for the late reply, Herb,

I've seen the video and it does demonstrate what I was looking for, however, I still hope for an audio file with that type of demonstration. Hopefully the community will put one up, like the South by Southwest comparison of the string orchestras. 

Thank you for the video.