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  4. Please Fix - Playback Problem
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    @iscorefilm said:

    I am switching from staccato TO 8th notes playing a legato phrase. Sustain will not work. End of story. The library is playing what is effectively a glitch.

    I forgot why I stopped commenting on the VSL forumns... because everyone thinks there is no room for improvement. If it isn't working as it should... then it will have an adverse affect. A staccato note simply SHOULD NOT have a transition to a legato note... PERIOD.

    Is this really that hard to understand? Am I being unreasonable?

    -Sean

    Yes you are being unreasonable, I'm afraid. You are stating your view as if it was the only view. You've already delivered a virtual slapping to me, accusing me of expecting you to share my workflow, yet you expect the rest of us to share your workflow.

    I totally understood what you want, but have offered two solutions to it already, which you don't want to use, because it interferes with the way that you like to work. Fine. No problem with that. However, you are actually asking for a feature request, and should the software be changed to work the way you want it to, it would impact on the way it works for the rest of us, so of course we have an opinion.

    What you want is for the first note of a legato patch automatically to use a start note in every situation. Nothing wrong with that for your music, but for me I would find it limiting, as I often use a staccato, or other patch, as a start note for a phrase, and using your system I would lose the transition to the 2nd note of the phrase. So there would need to be a way of telling the software whether or not to use start notes on a case by case basis. I think that's a good idea, but it is a feature request, not a bug fix.

    In the spirit of compromise, perhaps you'd be good enough to explain the point you mentioned about going from sequencer to notation program, so that I might be able to give you some hint on a way to make that work better for you. I have done this a lot, so might be able to help keep you happy, whilst using the VSL software in its current form.


    DG
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    DG,

    I'm sorry. I mean no hard feelings. However, every solution here assumes I either missed something or that there is a solution... yet those solutions are jimmy-rigged instead of a fix which would not conflict with any other variable to this problem.

    Due to the nature of those variables, which are inevitable in the software world, and due to the playback of the software not working as it should... It is what I would call a "missing feature" instead of a request. In my world, that is a bug. I have tested software for bugs and am well versed in the difference between a feature and a bug. So I understand where you are coming from completely. I believe that companies miss the mark when they treat 'missing features' as feature requests and not bugs... because user experience is far more important than most companies give weight. I also believe that those that do are far more successful than those that don't. In any case, the problem is recognized and I appreciate your respectul reply.

    [:)]

    -Sean
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     This is not a problem, it is a great advantage and crucial for VI to be programmed this way.  It  is the same thing allows you to use a starting note that is other than the legato articulations - for example, a sforzando that transitions to a legato, or even a dynamic that crescendos then transitions at the right legato velocity layer.  This is one of the most common occurences in programming and is dealt with simply by inserting after the staccato a sustain note, or a detache/portato, then the legato.   That is exactly the same as if you started with legato after the staccato, since thoe legato articulations actually ARE sustains before the transition.  If it is a fast phrase you need a somewaht faster attack note than sustain, but it will function exactly the same as  the legato only.
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    Here's a thought...

    Maybe if I notate some staccato notes then a legato passage immediately following it... it could play it like a real human being would. [;)]

    -Sean
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     It is like a real human being would.  All the legato articulations start with sustains, in fact, most or all of them actually the same samples as the sustain articulations.  So placing one at the start of a legato phrase simply shuts off the transition to the first note from the previous staccato notes.
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    "It is like a real human being would" ...On the condition of which articulation you are playing, you are correct. However, I actually like to staccatos and legatos right after each other. Pretty wild!

    I just switched from staccato to legato in a Kontakt-based library I own. It played it right! It's a miracle! [;)] lol

    VSL is great. I love the library. I respect the team. I'm simply offering a suggestion for an improvement which can be made. Maybe you don't want it. I do. It's pretty simple. Let's leave it at that.

    -Sean
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    For the record, I don't want anyone to read that post and think I prefer Kontakt. It's a decent tool and all. But VI-Pro is hands-down the best sampler out there. I simply want a tweak added. [:D]

    -Sean
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    It should also be mentioned that at the same cross-fade settings as legato, the patch blares heavily on a horn. So I now not only have to jimmy rig the articulation choice to get it to work... but I have to make further adjustments to the cross fade, otherwise it sounds pretty awful. Yet more work I have to do which is all unnecessary if I use my other libraries.

    My goal is to have all my libraries working together. I can copy a part from one instrument to another if needed. As it stands, every library works just fine... except for VSL. Like I said, I love VSL... so I'm not trying to paint a bad picture here. I'm simply illustrating that there are workflows in which this creates a problem. If you really want me to put an MP3 up here with a screenshot I'd be happy to. But again, does it take that much effort just to have something heard and changed? If that's the case, I'm not the one painting a bad picture on this forumn at all. Quite the contrary.

    -Sean
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    @iscorefilm said:

    However, I actually like to staccatos and legatos right after each other. Pretty wild!

    They ARE right after each other.  In fact, there is no way to get them any closer.  Legato articulations consist of three elements - a start note, a transition and a target note.   So you could never go directly from staccato to legato without hitting a start note EXCEPT in the situation which caused you a problem - having a transition from a staccato to a legato target note.  The only way to use the technology of these dissected transitions is to start with a different sample of a sustain or any note long enough to sustain (including portato or detache) to the  transition sample.  So you can switch easily instantly from staccato to legato even in extremely fast passages.
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    So, the point is - this is not a playback problem but a PLAYBACK FEATURE.  If you know how to use it.  [H]
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    Sure, a feature every other library I own has. Hopefully VSL will follow suit. [8-|]

    Although ironically, I also wish every other library I own was in VI Pro. I'm sure we can at least agree on that! lol

    -Sean
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    @iscorefilm said:

    Sure, a feature every other library I own has. Hopefully VSL will follow suit.

    I don't think that anyone disagrees that being able to force a start note could be very useful, but it should be an extra feature, not a change.

    FWIW in the real world it is very rare that a legato start note (in VSL terminology) would be used after a spiccato; the bow would more often come from above rather than on the string, which is a whole different articulation, so even in your scenario it is not really accurate when compared with real life.

    I still think that you should just change the legato threshold and learn to play better.  [;)]

    DG
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    DG.

    1) I can take out any instrument, play staccato, then legato and it would be a very natural performance. And fyi, French Horns can't play spiccato. Going from a staccato note to legato makes PERFECT sense and is ABSOLUTELY common on a WIDE variety of instruments.

    2) The transition note simply shouldn't be played if it's not something a performer WOULD EVER do. From staccato to legato... they wouldn't.

    I'm honestly sick of this discussion. The only reason I keep defending my point isn't to be argumentative, but because I don't want VSL to read the commentary and not act on this because of what you guys are saying. Disagreements are a waste of time. If you will not contribute a USEFUL way to improve the software in relation to the topic I have introduced, then please respect my request and keep the disagreement to yourself. I welcome contributing ideas which build or establish a new function which helps. I don't welcome people cutting down or disagreeing with an idea that has application. And furthermore, if you can't see the application... then it doesn't hurt you to leave it alone. Where as it DOES hurt me to disagree. This feature could help me. PLEASE leave it alone.

    Dear VSL,


    You have my "feature request"/bug/whatever... please act on it. My faith in VSL practically died in this forum, but I've reminded myself I haven't been talking to VSL staff this entire time. I have a glimmer of hope that someone can respect this enough to do it and not argue about something a musician would never do. Please make this change. My Kontakt instruments are very capable of this. I simply want VSL to follow suit so I don't have to deal with the playback or this discussion ever again.


    Please do something.

    With respect, and a bit of hope...

    -Sean
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    Sean, my Violin example was just to show that what you want isn't always applicable to the real world.

    You seem think that because people disagree, they should keep their mouths shut. History will prove you wrong on that time and time again. In any case, you started off with the opinion that the current behaviour was wrong and a bug., At least you now seem to accept that it isn't wrong; it's just not what you want it to be. That is progress. Maybe you should now change the title of this thread and then you won't get so much disagreement

    As I said before, there is nothing wrong with the way you want to work. It's just that if your idea becomes the only possible behaviour, there would be no workaround, whereas currently there are at least two workarounds. It's just that they don't suit you.

    DG
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    DG,

    Well for starters I am very willing to apologize for my own attitude here. I have been heated, upset, and honestly completely frustrated with this thread. I do welcome diverse opinions... but conditionally. If you are contributing something productive I welcome it. Your work-around suggestions were constructive. Thank you. I have stated that they are not useful to me. More specifically, that as a matter of difinitive fact, real human beings would not perform something a certain way... for certain articulations at least. So am I being definitive, yes, but only as it applies to certain circumstances. Am I trying to suggest that this apply to all patches and that there are no exceptions to this? No. I'm only trying to say that the software should play something as a performer would. I'm not saying that all performers and all articulations play the same way. I hope that clarifies.

    In any case, thanks for putting up with me. I hope this can get "added" as an option at very least.

    -Sean
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    Sean, without meaning to sound patronising, that is your best post yet in this thread, and I understand where you're coming from, even though comparing samples with real performers is somewhat misguided, IMO, as with samples we need to do what we need to do in order to make things sound good, and sometimes it is the opposite of what a performer on a non virtual instrument would do.

    Therefore have a suggestion that might suit you, should VSL choose to consider it. It could be that there is a new radio button in the VI Pro player, like the velocity xFade button, that can act as a Global "Force Start Note" switch, and a controller could switch it on and off. There could then also be control at the patch level, so that the patch is either on, off, or follows the Global setting, again like the Velocity x|Fade button. I believe that this would satisfy everyone. Thoughts?

    DG
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    Thanks... personally, I prefer most just to have disabling it for a patch, but I can also see why the global option similar to x-fade settings is a nice touch for people's unique setups. On a side note: other libraries have been adding faders for legato transitions to control volume. That hasn't been that important to me, but with how much control VSL has enabled for users it would be a nice touch as well. Technically, even that alone could solve my issue if it could be controlled via CC. I'd still prefer the patch option so I would have less to do, but either option (or more options in this area) sounds good.

    -Sean
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    I would think that controlling the volume of legato transitions is easier when they are bolted on separately, but as VSL records most of theirs as part of the articulation I guess that they would have to define how long the actual transition lasts. Maybe there could be a way to draw volume changes in, as there is with the Stretch feature.

    DG
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    The annoying thing about this is my statement that the legatos are made up of sustains followed by legato transitions was ignored.  THE LEGATOS ARE THE SAME SAMPLES AS SUSTAINS on the start note.  Think about what that means for about three seconds.   Iif you get this "feature" - you will get EXACTLY WHAT YOU NOW HAVE by using one sustain note in front of legato.  Guess what - it is the same number of steps to record.  You have to either put in two extra keyswitches, or two controllers values to shut off legato then turn it back on.    So it is totally pointless. 

    Now you can go on with your zingers and smart responses - I am out of here . Trying to help people whose goal is to be as rude, sarcastic and irritating as they can be is not my cup of tea.
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    William,

    Asking VSL to add functionality that most libraries have doublefold isn't an attempt to be irritating. Not accepting your work arounds, which create multiple other problems for me, is not an attempt to be irritating. I am simply trying to address my own needs. I'm sorry I offended you. I did the adult thing and apologized and moved forward. I hope we can all promote that level of respect.

    I don't own the entire VSL library so I cannot be sure of the results you've observed. But in my Cubase session which is currently running, I get a different result. The Sustain patch and Legato patch are different recordings. I tried every combination of start notes, repetition notes, etc. Nothing matches. The patches are very noticeabely different. Furthermore, when playing the exact same passage, but switching from Staccato to Sustain, I get an unusual blare. With a full x-fade, the sustain patch has considerably more blare than the legato patch. Adjusting the cross fade and volume to compensate produce undesireable results. In any case, it takes me more work and the result is not satisfactory or consistent.

    -Sean