@Errikos said:

Thanks for remembering nad for all this useful information. I have used Logic for years, I can't say I am unhappy with it (I wish it had those Expression Maps), but I am much more musician than engineer and I am trying to determine which of the main three DAWs is the most user-friendly, without having to sacrifice quality. I am someone that doesn't use external effects-hardware or other companies' plug-ins (save for VSL). How would you compare the quality of Logic's effects and plug-ins to those of DP's and Cubase's for serious orchestral and film work? Please note that I work from Sibelius to DAW, not the other way around.

When you're feeling rested of course.

Errikos,

I use Logic X and Wavelab 8 which containes all Cubase Effects as well ... so I know both internal Effects. Especially the lastest Plug ins in Cubase 7.5 and WL 8 are better in quality, Even for Composers. Agree?

I have to take your word for it, I haven't tried them. It seems a tough pill to swallow though that Wavelab would have better plug-ins and effects than Logic.

Wavelab and Cubase are double as expensive as Logic. So, it is more than fair that they share the same effects.

The reason for Steinbergs new quality is that that they hire the old Partners from Wizoo since quite a while. Everyone who knows Wizoo-Products will know what that means for quality. For example ... there is a new Reverb in Cubase 7.5 and it is made by the Guy who created the legendary WizooVerb Plug in. But it is only the algorithmic Part of WizooVerb (there was a convolutionpart too ... maybe in Cubase 8?? ... who knows ...)

Unfortunatly this great Reverb is not in WL 8 yet ... maybe in 8.5 ...

That is why many People think, that Cubase takes the lead in Future Development. I agree.

There are great reverbs in Logic like the "Space Design". But the best is MIR 

@Errikos said:

I have to take your word for it, I haven't tried them. It seems a tough pill to swallow though that Wavelab would have better plug-ins and effects than Logic.

Thank you all guys for your input, I was trying to gauge from you which DAW you thought had the better EQs, Compressors, Reverbs, etc., on its own, otherwise I know that there are dedicated companies of software and hardware plug-ins, even this company's own Vienna Suite and MIR.

Errikos - Again, sorry for the delay. Was out of town.

About plugins between DP and Logic. As of Logic 9 vs DP 6 or 7, Logic has had way many more plugins which helped it's popularity (MOTU has a way of being late with these things). And Logic's plugins are exceptional. Apple continues to add nice pop music plugins (like the drummer feature, and the amp sims). There are some handy plugins unique to Logic that DP does not have (Test Oscillator, Exciter, Grooveshifter, Sub Bass, Pitch Shifter - as a plugin , but DP has it like melodyne, built into the waveform. I think Logic X has this now?), BPM Counter - as a plugin, and some of the Dist, Delay, Filter and Modulation plugins. DP does have different takes of some of these.

On the other hand, DP 7 and 8 added some nice plugins itself. (check out this web page http://www.motu.com/products/software/dp/plug-ins.html).

Some of the highlights are speaker cabinet rooms for guitar and bass (fairly unique - almost MIR like), a very nice dynamic EQ, a wonderful phase correction plugin (I use it all the time), a 5-band MS dynamic EQ, a de-esser that's a one band dynamic EQ, a sub-kick bass drum enhancer, a deep ensemble chorus, the Masterworks series Comp, Limiter, EQ (very nice) and a LA-2A clone leveler.

Some of DP's unique plugins are Pattern Gate, POLAR (a RAM based loop recorder - great for vocal re-takes), an MS decoder, a Moog style multi mode filter, and the assortment of Delay, Dist, Modulation, Filter and Reverb types.

It's fairly even now, but with Logic having a few more plugins, both having high end plugins, but DP having a small handful of killer plugins that Logic doesn't have, and visa versa. Logic's Space Designer is roughly equal to DP's utilitarian ProVerb. Both are great, but neither is AltiVerb.

Also, DP has had MIDI plugins and Spectral Effects  for 20 years, (can edit pitch, time and formant, like flex time but without the ability to automate speed and pitch together - for the tape machine stop effect for example).

DP has part of VocAlign built in.

DP does not have Apple Loops (but can use them, nor does it have the new drummer feature). DP does not have a decent sampler nor many VIs (this is where Logic KILLS DP). One has to buy DP's VIs separately (a stupid move IMO)

Overall, except for VIs, they just about even each other out. I'd give Logic the edge but with DP having a few killer must haves.

I know I'm leaving something out but that's a pretty decent breakdown I think. Go to that link above and you'll see for yourself.

If there is one DAW that comes with enough VIs and plugins to do a pro production out of the box, it's Logic. Cubase has it's good plugins (Halion, Padshop and many many others), DP does have MachFive which is great, but is not included with DP (MOTU hear's from me often about this), but regardless which DAW one chooses in our business we all need Kontakt pretty much anyway.

Logic is a great DAW. Overall DP does certain things better, IMO. There are a lot of Cubase users here, but there are a lot of strengths to Cubase, Logic and DP (and Pro Tools too), and I like having three of them generally - DP, Logic and PT. Together they cover so much ground and I like switching to Logic for some things, and back to DP for others. No big deal to me.

I'd like note Expressions, but I can live without. I'm waiting to find out if VEPro and DP are having issues (mentioned in another thread), but I see no reason to leave DP for Cubase. I see no reason to leave Logic for anything. But I see very good reasons to learn a couple of contrasting DAWs. It doesn't take much time as there is a lot of cross over.

Hope that helps. I'll try to add a lot more detail to the DP vs Logic orchestral music comparison soon. DP wins, IMO, for a couple of very important reasons, but you have no reason to stop using Logic for orchestral music if you're getting the job done IMO. Logic's score editor is actually is better than DP (but I use Sibelius anyway).

Hi all,

Interesting thread. Like some of you I've used DP (started there in v2. whoa...) and Logic and even PT (but not much) to do midi/orchestra film and TV work. I switched to Logic 7 from DP because I kept having crashes in DP that seemed to have to do with the file size.

I like to write a score as one long document (crazy I know, but its my workflow- i really like to be able to play from cue to cue, or to look at large sections of the score with the current music in place, and to go back and reference the way i dealt with a theme in a previous cue) and with DP5, when the file (sequence) got to be a certain size, things began to go south, sometimes in ways that were unrecoverable. This happened whether or not I was using chunks as a workaround. So that meant having to write individual sequences for each cue, or at least (in the old days) double reels, and then keep a separate session with rough mixes in place to use for watching the whole project. Many times I have been able to address directors' or producers' concerns just by playing a cue and isolating certain elements they are not liking. Of course that doesn't work at the same speed if you can't get under the hood on individual cues.

I did go back to DP7 last year for a couple of projects, because I wanted to see how it handles multi-timbral instruments. IMHO DP is way easier to deal with than Logic in this regard. To me, the "object-oriented" interface in Logic is pretty much a nightmare, or at least requires a LOT more care and feeding than DP. Just try to use the Logic solo function... Some improvements are now in Logic X, but it's still really clumsy. And as observed elsewhere, DP really is optimized for film work in some very important ways, especially dealing with video and clicks, which are invaluable when you're working with live ensembles. Also DP deals with viewing and editing automation much more cleanly that Logic.

Things to love about Logic: being able to mute any object in the arrange page with a key command. DP will let you do this with Midi objects but not audio and that drives me pretty crazy, again because its a part of my workflow. The Logic X plugs and VI's are good. The sampler is robust and will accomodate a lot of sample formats. And, for doing audio recording, the way Logic deals with comping is way the best among DP. PT and Logic. Really bulletproof and fast.

And dittos on thenightwatch: But I see very good reasons to learn a couple of contrasting DAWs. 

I too love the experience of switching back and forth. And spending some time playing around in Reason and Live because of the excellent differences in those UIs and the weird results they will yield.

mac pro 2.4 / OSX 10.8.5 / 16GB / Avid192s / NI Komplete, All Spectrasonics, VEP, UAD 

We've had a lot of the same experiences. I started using the black and white DP at version 1.7! Woo! Back in the day of four audio tracks with the audiomedia card and Sound Designer II. Sure was stable though. I had started on Master Tracks Pro on a Mac Classic and need to step up. I took months trying to decide between Performer, Vision, Cubase and Logic. They all were really good. Very even. Vision was really good and had a great interface. I remember being impressed by Cubase. I thought Performer had the most features but was kinda ugly with all GUI icons. But I went with DP. on System 7 on a Mac Quadra 040 Motorola CPU running at 40Mhz! That was fast back then! Good thing as Vision went bye bye. When I got up to DP4 I got involved with a project that took a sickening 4 years! I didn't upgrade anything until that massive project was over. By then MOTU has just come out with DP7. DP8 is by far, their best release after DP4 IMO. I heard I didn't miss much with DP5 and 6.

One cool thing to do is to use BOTH DP and Logic. With Rewire and DP's Interapplication MIDI you can use Logic as a host for DP. I do some stuff that's great to do in Logic and then pipe Logic channels to DP through Aux tracks. Works great!

Let's see... Like you I didn't like using chunks. I liked to work linear and I used DP that way (like PT). Now with VEPro and VRacks I definitely use Chunks.

The object oriented workflow in Logic seemed illogical to me. I could not get started in Logic to save my life.

People new to MOTUNATION ask about wanting to mute individual MIDI notes (which DP can not do, it can mute audio soundbites), and for the life of me, I couldn't figure out why someone would want to do that. Is it a music genre thing? Or is it to hear the effect of a rest on a melody? I just use my ear on the latter one. And right, automation in Logic is weird. I've had to undo so many times. Ha. Two things that DP gets criticized for I REALLY like - separate MIDI and VI tracks (which makes multitimbral tracks a very normal thing, plus I like my VI's separate for Vracks), and having CC line automation in one window compared to DAWs that use multi frames (which take up a lot of space), I like the way DP does that (multi-selecting CC lines, etc..).

I actually like DP's audio comp tracks a lot, but it feels about the same as Logic.

I really enjoy sketching in Logic. I don't do much editing but I can fly through ideas in Logic. DP needs little more organizing time.

Anyway I'm just repeating myself or what you said. I like and use both. I can't wait to update to Logic X. I really like the drummer in Garageband for iOS. And MainStage is awesome. I wish MOTU added "fun" things to DP more than they do. 

I think I'm going to learn Cubase and maybe Reaper next. I'd like to know in a nutshell the important differences between DP and Cubase (besides that Cubase won't win any beauty contests-sorry! That's not important until a GUI gets offensive - like older versions of Windows. Sorry again!). Anyway, good to hear your stories.

Thanks nightwatch, it is all very useful information. I have always used Logic (except for B.C. dates when I used MasterTracks...), but I am always out looking for software that is efficient, user-friendly, and top quality, so that is why I am asking all these questions. If I feel after everybody's input (and other web information) that DP or Cubase would be better for me, I'll switch. I will keep monitoring this thread for your report on orchestral music on those DAWs. I also use Sibelius and use it first to fully orchestrate; I then dump the MIDI files on Logic.

Speaking about GUI, it is very important to me (crazy I know), and I much prefer the black new Logic look - ditto on the black DP as well.

Hey Daryl, are you referring to D. Spreadbury's awaited notation software? Do you have inside information on that you would care to share, as this would be very valuable! You could P.M. me if you'd like to keep it private. Or is it something else, and approximately when do you time its implementation and release? Bringing notation to performance closer together in computers - approximating what happens at the concert hall - by intuitive and musical programming would be a great leap forward.

Interesting that you heared of the Development of this new Notationsoftware too. Do you have an Info about the Release-Year ? Steinberg also prepare a Grooveagent PRO.

FWIW, I had one email exchange with D. Spreadbury, given some special concerns/needs that I have, and was most encouraged that he actually took the time to respond to my question.  IMO, it is important to remember that this notation program is a brand new program, and it may be awhile before it is released.  I too am most curious to find out what the result will be.