Ensemble MIDI Sync With Finale and DAW

[waveheavy]

Haven't tried it yet, but the software LoopBe30 is supposed to allow Finale as the master out to play MIDI tracks with loaded instruments in my DAW. This bypasses Finale's VST playback feature. LoopBe30 allows individual assigning of 30 MIDI channels between Finale and the DAW. Assuming that is the case, I have a couple of questions.

1. I don't fully understand how Ensemble (not pro) works yet, but it appears that each separate instance of Ensemble allows up to 16 independent instrument channels. And the limit to the number of Ensemble instances you can have only depends on computer CPU limitations. Am I correct in assuming that?

2. Using LoopBE30 to play MIDI tracks in my DAW, do I just hit record in my DAW to get the MIDI notes into the DAW when Finale plays? Based on a YouTube tutorial for LoopBe30, the DAW MIDI track's volume indicators showed signal input in the level indicators. Should be able to just record that and get the MIDI notes into the DAW, right?

3. I then assume it's a simple matter of using my MIDI controller to 'play' the VSL keyswitches, expression, mod wheel, etc., in the DAW MIDI tracks after the MIDI notes are imported from Finale into the DAW, right?

Any help appreciated.

[Bill]

 If you're sending MIDI from Finale to your DAW, there's no reason to be using VE.

[andi]

Hello waveheavy!

I'm not sure what you are exactly trying to do.
In our User Area you can find Finale Human Playback Preferences for the Special Edition and a keyswitch Dump file.
http://www.vsl.co.at/en/68/141/460/1603/1290.htm

With these files you can control the Vienna Instruments inside Vienna Ensemble with Finale. If you prefer finetuning the playback with DAW software, you can export a MIDI file with Finale and load it with your DAW software.

Best regards,
Andi

[waveheavy]

Hello Andi,

My specific problem is I'm not able to play more than 16 instruments using Vienna Ensemble in Finale 2014.

I have 2 instances of VE setup in Finale's "VST Banks & Effects" dialog. My score has 20 instruments. Finale plays the first 16 instruments loaded in the first instance of VE on Bank 1. But it is not playing the last 4 instruments loaded on a 2nd instance of VE in Bank 2. Finale 2014 supports up to 128 channels via 8 Banks.

I setup VE on Banks 1 & 2 in Finale's "VST Banks & Effects" dialog, hit the arrow button next to the Bank to instantiate each VE instance, then loaded the Vienna instrument patches for each channel in VE, then assigned them in Finale's "ScoreManager" as they instruct. When I assigned the last 4 instruments in the score to VE using ScoreManager, Finale automatically recognized their VE assignments as Bank 2/ch.1-4. I made sure the 2nd instance of VE had the instruments assigned to the "2 VE Plugin MIDI 2" that represents the 2nd VE instance. This shows the MIDI assignments were recognized and in order. Yet Finale will not play the instruments in the 2nd VE instance on Bank 2.

I noticed when using the Aria player for the Garritan instruments, it loads 2 instances of the Aria player (Bank 1 & Bank 2), and does play all 20 instruments in the score, with its ScoreManager assignment for the last 4 as Bank 2/ch.1-4, just as it showed with the 2nd instance of VE. I suspect there's a problem somewhere between Finale and VE's interpretation of the 2nd instance mapping.

I already had the Vienna Instruments Human Playback file loaded, as also the percussion and keyswitch mapping. I do most of my writing in notation, then export the MIDI files to my DAW. I bought Vienna Instruments Special Edition to try and achieve better agreement between the writing in notation and performance tweaks in the DAW.

Dave

[civilization 3]

@waveheavy said:

I then assume it's a simple matter of using my MIDI controller to 'play' the VSL keyswitches, expression, mod wheel, etc., in the DAW MIDI tracks after the MIDI notes are imported from Finale into the DAW, right?

If you have a MIDI track, it is played by an instrument. The controller doesn't enter into it after the fact, it is not inserted into the process of the [extant MIDI/] DAW connecting to instruments. It functions as input in creating MIDI tracks, notes and commands, not as a relayer or player.

[civilization 3]

You can use it to record additional MIDI and merge it with your extant MIDI, but you seem to be thinking the MIDI goes through the controller on the way to instruments, and no. It comes from the controller through the DAW to instruments. Entering by controller is the same act as writing the notes in the notation program, it's creating the instructions at the beginning of the path.

[Bill]

This issue if because the Bank setup and the Score Manger work against each other.

Add the two instances of VE in the Bank setup, but DON'T open them there. Go to Score Manager to open and set them up.

There's a bug in score manager where by the Bank column doesn't show up at first. Click on "Cusomtize view, uncheck Bank and Channel, and OK. Then go back and check it again and that column will show up. Finale likes to asign the wrong Bank number, so you have to fiddle with it to get it set to Bank 2.

[waveheavy]

Yes, I'm aware of what the MIDI controller does when inputing notes in the DAW, not really what I meant though. I was speaking of recording Finale's playback of all the score's instruments in realtime patched to individual MIDI tracks in my DAW, which is what LoopBe30 is supposed to allow you to do.

What the LoopBe30 program does is create software cables for MIDI channels within your host computer so you can patch those MIDI channels from a program like Finale or Sibelius directly to MIDI tracks setup in your DAW. Instead of the instruments playing within Finale they play via the looper within the DAW. Like someone said here already, that's actually what Vienna Ensemble is doing, providing a way to mix, EQ, comp, etc., like you'd do in a DAW.

Still though, using something like LoopBE30 should bypass the VST Bank setup (what I'm having problems with in Finale 2014). That's why I was considering the LoopBe30 program, as it allows 30 MIDI channels to be routed between software programs.

Dave

[waveheavy]

Thanks for the input Bill,

I tried what you said. I set 2 instances of VE in Banks 1 & 2 of Finale's "VST Banks & Effects" dialog, not touching anything else there, then I turned off the Banks & Channels view in the ScoreManager, then I clicked on "Edit" next to each instrument to instantiate VE and did the VE assignments. I checked and unchecked the view several times. Still not playing the 2nd VE instance on Bank 2. It's actually worse, because the last instrument on Bank 1 only would play the first bar in the score. Didn't have that kind of problem the other way, so something between Finale 2014 and VSL is really screwed up.

I also did an uninstall of both Finale and VSL, made sure there weren't any old .dll files, and re-installed them. Still no luck. I may do that again except this time going into the Windows registry and delete all traces of both pieces of software and then re-load them again.

I've contacted MakeMusic about this, but I may need to add this latest detail. (I'm using a quad-core PC running Windows 7 32 bit for anyone interested.)

[waveheavy]

OK, at this point I am convinced that Finale 2014 will not play more than 1 instance of Vienna Ensemble. I've tried everything I know to try. I found older posts on the Internet about Logic 8 users having the same problem with Vienna Ensemble, only being able to run 1 instance. That appears to point more in the direction of VSL being the problem than Finale. Any Sibelius owners having this problem of being able to use ony 1 instance of Vienna Ensemble? which means only 16 channel playback in Sibelius?

[andi]

Hello Dave!

I can use more Vienna Ensemble instances in Finale 2014 without any problem here. Here's what I have done.
- Made a new score with 20 instruments with the Finale 2014 Setup Wizard.
- Went to the VST Banks & Effects menu and replaced the two Aria Players with 2 Vienna Ensemble instances.
- Looked at the Finale 2014 Score Manager to see the Channel assignment. As Bill has mentioned I had to turn off and on the "Bank & Channel" view to get the bank numbers displayed.
- Loaded the Special Edition instrument matrices in the two Vienna Ensemble instances and set the channel numbers according to the channel numbers in the Finale 2014 ScoreManager.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,
Andi

[waveheavy]

Thanks for the reply Andi,

First of all, I'm using a PC running Windows 7. So it sounds like you guys are using a Mac which would account for a slightly different setup. Unchecking the "Band and Channel" in Customize View in ScoreManager does nothing on my computer except hides the MIDI assignment columns until you uncheck it.

--I'm doing close to the same thing as your method. I create a score using Setup Wizard, remove the two Aria players and replace them with 2 instances of VE. Then I go to the ScoreManger where all the instruments are listed to the left, but the Device column for each score instrument shows "none" and MIDI Prg, Bank, Ch. shows nothing. I have to hit the button next to the Device column which brings up a drop down box and I select Vienna Ensemble from it. Then... the Sound column shows an "Edit" link with MIDI automatically set to Prg 1, Bank 1, Ch 1. The first instance of VE displays only when I hit that "Edit" link, then I setup the first instrument matrice within VE, and assign it to the first VE and channel 1. I then have to repeat this process for each score instrument. When I get to the 17th score instrument, ScoreManger automatically assigns it to Prg 1, Bank 2, Ch.1. If I had put the VE instance on Bank 3 Finale still sees it and puts Prg 1, Bank 3, Ch.1.

--Anothe method I tried was to hit the button next to each instance of VE loaded in the VST Banks & Effects dialog. When I do that the VE Service dialog displays and I select "Connect 32-bit" and then the VE instrument player displays. I load the VE patch and when I go to ScoreManger the score instruments Device column still shows "none" and no MIDI assignment. I still have to select Vienna Ensemble from the drop down box with the button next to the Device column.

@andi said:

Hello Dave!

I can use more Vienna Ensemble instances in Finale 2014 without any problem here. Here's what I have done.
- Made a new score with 20 instruments with the Finale 2014 Setup Wizard.
- Went to the VST Banks & Effects menu and replaced the two Aria Players with 2 Vienna Ensemble instances.
- Looked at the Finale 2014 Score Manager to see the Channel assignment. As Bill has mentioned I had to turn off and on the "Bank & Channel" view to get the bank numbers displayed.
- Loaded the Special Edition instrument matrices in the two Vienna Ensemble instances and set the channel numbers according to the channel numbers in the Finale 2014 ScoreManager.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,
Andi

[waveheavy]

Another question, how are you guys setting up MIDI in the MIDI Setup within Finale 2014? And how are you assigning the instrument matrice channels within Vienna Ensemble? I'm basing the VE matrice channel assignments on how it's been working with Pro Tools 10. In Pro Tools I create an Instrument track for each instance of Vienna Ensemble, and all the instruments in it are assigned within Pro Tools to that one instance up to 16 channels (mapped to "VE 1" and ch.1 thru 16. Then I create another Instrument track for a second instance of VE, and assign 16 more channels to it ("VE 2", ch.1-16), and so on. This assigning works fine in Pro Tools 10.

[Bill]

 It sounds like you're not loading the VE server before starting Finale...

[waveheavy]

Bill,

How can the VE instances display without the VE server loading up first? Not possible. The 2 instances of the VE player do display once I hit the "Edit" links within ScoreManager. The problem is the first VE instance on Bank 1 plays all 16 instruments in the score, but the second VE player instance on Bank 2 does not play instruments 17 through 20.

@Bill said:

 It sounds like you're not loading the VE server before starting Finale...

[waveheavy]

Guys,

Do me a simple favor. With a score that you're using multiple instances of the VE (Vienna Ensemble) player on multiple Banks in Finale 2014, tell me what your MIDI patching is within the tracks in the VE players. What do you have the MIDI In's and MIDI Out's within Ensemble set to? Are you leaving all the VE's MIDI In's to "Omni" or "All", or set to "VE Plugin MIDI In 1", etc.?

This might be part of the problem. Since ScoreManager in Finale recognizes the two instances of the VE player on different Banks, it's probably not necessary to assign the VE Plugin MIDI In 1, etc., on each loaded instrument in Ensemble. Probably needs to be left at "All" or "Omni". I know in Pro Tools 10 you have to use the VE's Plugin MIDI In 1, etc., setting for each channel, otherwise it doesn't recognize the different instances of VE players.

[andi]

Hi Dave!

I am also working on Windows 7. It's no Mac vs. PC thing.

Only VST3-hosts can use more than the first of the MIDI-In ports in Vienna Ensemble. Finale is not VST3-compatible. So simply leave the MIDI-In port in all Vienna Ensemble instances at -Omni-. If you have set it to anything else than -Omni- or In 1, Vienna Ensemble won't receive MIDI information. The channels have to be set the same way as in the ScoreManager.

Please also leave the output of the Master Bus at Out 1/Out 2. Finale doesn't receive the audio signal from other outputs.

Best,
Andi

[waveheavy]

Andi,

I think that solved the problem. I set all Ensemble tracks "In" to Omni and then matched ScoreManager's Channel assignments. The instruments assigned to Bank 2 play now.

Thanks for your help,

Dave

@andi said:

Hi Dave!

I am also working on Windows 7. It's no Mac vs. PC thing.

Only VST3-hosts can use more than the first of the MIDI-In ports in Vienna Ensemble. Finale is not VST3-compatible. So simply leave the MIDI-In port in all Vienna Ensemble instances at -Omni-. If you have set it to anything else than -Omni- or In 1, Vienna Ensemble won't receive MIDI information. The channels have to be set the same way as in the ScoreManager.

Please also leave the output of the Master Bus at Out 1/Out 2. Finale doesn't receive the audio signal from other outputs.

Best,
Andi

[andi]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm glad that we solved the problem.

Best,
Andi