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  4. Should I use compressors for my Orchestral instruments?

  • Should I use compressors for my Orchestral instruments?

    N
    N
    Hi, I am using the string libraries: Orchestral I/II, and Dimension Strings. I have read in various posts where people advice agains using any compression on the instrumets as you loose dynamics (may sound unnatural). So now that I am composing my piece, my instruments sound too low compared to other elements. If I can't use compression, how can I maximize their loudness of the Orchestral strings? Thank you! -N.
  • A
    A

    It is good general rule to not use any compression on individual (orchestral) instruments,  it will simply begin to sound "false". It is dynamic expression that creates realism, so that is the last thing you want to compress out.


    If you are playing at a reasonable velocity, and the expression is at max, and you cannot get the volume up enough,  then it means the rest of your instruments (non string sounds) are too loud.  In which case,  back every other sound in your mix back by about 9dB (making a bit of a wild guess here how much behind the mix your strings are). 

    If you are using Vienna Ensemble, the "Natural Volume" is a good rule to follow, if not, you are a little on your own,  but the golden rule is, if you cannot get something loud enough, it means everything else is too loud.
  • civilization 3C
    civilization 3C

    That all reads like unexamined dogma to me. I wonder why there is a compressor in 'Vienna Suite' with all these presets for individual orchestral instruments. I'm assuming that this post, placed in 'MIR, Vienna Suite etc' refers to these tools.

    Some of this use of compression is to get a certain sound. I think it's appropriate to point to the Vienna Suite tutorial videos at this time.

    Compression through itself is not going to utterly obliterate dynamic range (and frankly that remark comes across as from someone that is not versed in their use); this 'naturalness' is itself kind of ideological notion. "It will simply begin to sound 'false'". No, this is samples usage and we can use tools to enhance them and better place them in a mix. That 'simply' is not so much a fact as your opinion, stated rather baldly.

    The natural volume is not a rule, it's a baseline or perhaps a reference point, and what it's going to assure used with no further examination and outside of context is often 'it's not loud enough'. Do you actual never raise levels, or mix?
  • T
    T

    Some notes on the subject:

    1. One should not worry about reducing the dynamic range if there is not enough dynamic range in the part.

    2. Compression sounds unnatural when it is used to make up for poor orchestration, that is, to make something sound louder than what it could possibly sound.

    3. Compression is useful to compensate for sudden changes in loudness when the part moves between different velocity layers.

    4. Compressors are not set on stone, one can (and should) automate them to engage the problematic points and release when more dynamic breadth is required.

    5. Relative loudness of multiple parts is better handled by proper mixing, inadequacies of loudness in a single part can be handled by compression.

    I use compressors regularly, sometimes just to compensante something I find odd with a particular patch.
  • Beat KaufmannB
    Beat KaufmannB
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    @nektarios said:

    So now that I am composing my piece, my instruments sound too low compared to other elements. If I can't use compression, how can I maximize their loudness of the Orchestral strings?

    Could you give us an example (mp3 or so)?

    Maybe there are other helpers possible - beside compression.

    Best

    Beat Kaufmann

    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • N
    N 
    Thank you guys! Very helpful advice.

Here is what I have so far with all compressors applied:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/g0xwjtofilxz46f/Wedding_Song_15.wav 

My mix sounds very bad is earphones. :-/ Again this is work in progress.
  • Beat KaufmannB
    Beat KaufmannB

    Hi Nektarios

    How ever you did your mix - it is in mono (the one we can downlod at any rate).

    Either you wanted to give us such a mono file or something turns the signal into mono within your mix...

    Check this matter please...

    Beat

    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • N
    N
    Oh wow! Let me check! Thanks for pinpointing!
  • A
    A

    Your mix does sound rather non dynamic,  the instruments seem all at one constant level - this could the result of over compression,  or could be a result of the lack of velocity variation,  and most importantly with strings,  some dynamic level control.  I always "draw" the expression in afterwards (in Cubase), but you may prefer to overdub a MIDI controller controlling expression.

    The result is something that sounds quite synthetic - which is good if that is what you were trying to achieve, but if you want it sound like a real orchestra,  then there needs to be more dynamics in the strings,  and the piano as well (though that would have to be done with velocty not level -  as you need a softer timbre variation).   


    Though,  as your mix is mono,  some separation of the instruments into their own stereo field is going to change things a lot.

    Can you post a version of this piece with all the compression turned off?
  • A
    A
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    @civilization 3 said:

    ...
    Compression through itself is not going to utterly obliterate dynamic range (and frankly that remark comes across as from someone that is not versed in their use); this 'naturalness' is itself kind of ideological notion. "It will simply begin to sound 'false'". No, this is samples usage and we can use tools to enhance them and better place them in a mix. That 'simply' is not so much a fact as your opinion, stated rather baldly.

    .....

    How much compression affects things, is simply down to the compresser settings - a gentle 2:1 ratio is subtle enough to not destroy the dynamic range too much (virtually all the Vienna Suite presets are under 2:1), but a setting like 4:1 upwards is going to sound wrong.

    This is the trap that most inexperienced users fall into with the levels of instruments (a compressor is only a form of automatic level control).  

    The VSL instruments have many velocity layers, so greater velocity produces different articulations (which are louder),  but if you take a soft velocity layer and turn the volume up - so it is as loud as a higher velocity level, that is going to sound wrong,  you cannot have a soft timbre loud - that is not what the instrument sounds like.  If you need a soft tone louder,  then you can add more players,  but simply turning soft layers up and  hard layers down (which is what a compressor is doing) is going to tell your ears that something is not real anymore.

    To state that "this is only sample useage.." just means you don't know how to achieve quality results from a sample library, and is a bit of an insult to the quality library that VSL have produced, the secret of realism is in dynamics and using the right articulations,  and a compressor is not going to help realism here. A sample library can sound absolutely real in the right hands.

    I do use compressors where needed,  but trying to create a mix by compression will not produce a good result.
  • N
    N
    Thank you guys! Very very helpful information here. Sorry about the mono mix, the mono checkbox was checked and I didn't see it.

    Here is my piece in stereo and most compression removed. Wow, this sounds much much lower now. I can barely hear the strings when they first come in at 30 seconds in.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33556625/Music/Wedding_Song_17.wav

    -N.
  • A
    A

    Try reducing the percussion and FX by around 9dB, you may then be able to push the master fader up a bit,  the end result will bring the strings up.
  • N
    N
    Ok, will do, thank you!
  • G
    G
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    @Tralen said:

    4. Compressors are not set on stone, one can (and should) automate them to engage the problematic points and release when more dynamic breadth is required.

    My approach as well, especially whith multiband compression - the same setting which will solve a particular problem in one context is more then likely to create a new problem in a different context...
  • G
    G
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    @andyjh said:

    the secret of realism is in dynamics and using the right articulations,  and a compressor is not going to help realism here. A sample library can sound absolutely real in the right hands.

    I do use compressors where needed,  but trying to create a mix by compression will not produce a good result.

    Amen to this. Poor mixing cannot be compensated for by using compression.