I totally disagree with this post of Beat kaufmann.  There is no "secret" -  so Guy Bacos is keeping what he does a "secret"? That is ridiculous.  There is no secret to VSL - it is simply a sound called  the symphony orchestra.  That is provided by the detailed samples, and you can use it any way you want. You can experiment with weird new combinations, you can emulate old orchestrational practices, you can emulate a specifc composer, whatever.  So to say there is a "secret" is completely in error.

I have no desire to hide from people anything that ever sounded good in my music. Why?  To feel like a big shot?  I would feel small if I did that. If there are people who are actually doing that - they are seriously wrong, because what they believe is their secret is old news to anyone who has the same library.

Also, the conception that it is hard to make VSL sound good is absurd. It sounds incredibly good right out of the box.  Just load an instrument and play it. 

And Beat - you are wrong about using MIR - everything sounds the same? That is crazy.  The venues are radically different in the four roompacks, and create a completely different sound, instantly.  On top of that, you can tweak things if you want, and make more changes in the sound, and with the MIRacle additions there is even more variation.  So how you can think that MIR makes everything the same is beyond me. 

This topic has gotten -far- more expansive than I intended. I don't dislike the current demos. I just think they could use some fresh partners. I happen to like the Spitfire demos and that's all I meant. No disrespect to Guy... whose sandals I am not fit to untie. That said, what constitutes 'creative' contemporary scoring is more John Adams and Phillip Glass than Korngold or John Williams and all that 'epic' comic book movie crap.

I think some of 'the pros' here do not have enough empathy for the unwashed masses. VSL -is- more difficult OOTB. If all you want is 'One Button 2001 MegaChord!' it's -way- easier with Symphobia. And frankly? That's all a -lot- of people want.. at least at the beginning. So there -is- a -steep- learning curve compared with other libs. With great power and all that...  Now some people take to it easily, just as some people have a quick facility with, say, notation or ear training. As a teacher, it took me -years- to not scream at students who didn't find some skill as 'easy' as I -thought- they should. I figured -everyone- was basically not paying attention.

In short, some have to -work- at 'getting' it and VSL should take all necessary steps to reach out to users with -copious- examples.

I have asked Guy for MIDI on a couple of demos and he has always been gracious (and prompt) in helping me out. Which is -insanely- gracious.

I agree with the above comment about the 'processed' quality of other libs... VSL is the unvarnished truth. -However-, it never hurts to give people a -little- of what they want.

I think VSL is perceived as elitist and I think that's to the company's detriment. All it does is push the new generation (which is generally -not- as schooled in 'traditional' music skills) further and further away; in effect just giving them over to the 'construction kits' of the world. Far better, IMHO, to do what colleges now do... provide as much -remedial- service as possible and thus show users 'hey, this ain't so bad!', rather than just saying, 'come back when you have the basic skills together.' All that does is lose people (permanently) to the 'phrase generators' of the world.

---JC

@Suntower said:

VSL -is- more difficult OOTB. If all you want is 'One Button 2001 MegaChord!' it's -way- easier with Symphobia. And frankly? That's all a -lot- of people want.. at least at the beginning.

that is bullshit.

What is difficult about loading an instrument and playing the sound it produces?  that is what you get out of the box in VSL.    It is people like you who are causing misunderstanding on the internet on a daily basis. 

VSL is the simplest to use way of playing orchestral samples I have ever encountered, and i have used most all of them.  The interface is totally intuitive.  It is for composers and musicians who want to create their own music.  That is NOT LIKE SYMPHOBIA which is someone else's music, all put into place.  The people looking into VSL are not looking for that -  generic scoring with no composer input.  You don't seem to get that.   So until you do, I won't respond anymore. By the way, I don't care if this went off topic because your original concept was very weak and, in fact, fallacious.

Thanks Beat! That is exactly what I was thinking of. In order to get a realistic performace from a VSL instrument you really have to already know how to write for its acoustic counterpart. It's one thing to hear short excerpt of long and short detache runs, trills, repetitions etc... but I think that leaves the new potential customers wondering  "These all sound great but how well will they all sound together?" And it can be difficult to tell how well a single instrument sounds in an ensemble piece.

I do like that the samples are "dry" so you can mix them however you want with what ever fx you have or can afford. It might be nice to have as you suggested a short piece played dry, then with the suite, and then with MIR. (I love the suite, having all of the presets makes it so powerfull and easy to get great sounds, once I tried out the demo it was a no brainer that I would get it instead of the Waves Silver bundle.)

On a side note, I think I saw some posts awhile back that you were thinking about writing a book on midi orchestration, but decided not to. That's unfortunate because there is a real lack of good books on the subject, and I'd certainly buy your book if you wrote it.

Best wishes,

Michael

Dear William

You don't need to agree with my statement. No problem. But when I read your answer I feel that I probably couldn't transfer my opinion the right way.

Unfortunately English isn't my mother tongue. Neither am I against the excellent demos and music of Guy nor am I against MIR. And finally I like, no, I love the samples of VSL. But...

Take the Demos at "Dimension Strings" for example:

• 9 of 12 Demos are "Guy-Demos". Different Music yes, but he mixes and composes as "Guy". No problem so far... but he is just he. (advantage/disadvantage in the meantime)
  

• I suspect, that all these DS demos are mixed with MIR. No problem at all. Very good so far. But keep in mind. MIR is an effect. Even if you are right about different venues and so on it is always MIR. Try to mix the samples without MIR and you will get a complete other mix - which can sound even better nota bene.
• There is no demo which shows us the combination "some real band instruments" combined with the DS (instead of real studio string players)
• There is no demo of a Pop-Song containing DS
• There is no demo of a dance-, techno-,
• There is no demo which shows as some simple different articulations for example some nice legato parts. VSL is still unbeatable conserning this matter.
• ...
  

Demos should be here for the customer who like to make the decision "purchase" or not. So demos also should show how samples sound without effect, with simply one small reverb, alone. Therefore I mentioned: Why not show the same demo mixed in several ways. And why not with the addition of a pdf with the samples which where in use (mentioned above). In the early days VSL produced such articulation demos.

Further also important:

The customer knows that after a purchase he will not get these beautiful sounds of the demos. So demos should also show in a fair way how samples sound pure.

I try to say it once more and hope not to annoy:

There are lots of excellent and fantastic demos at VSL. After listening to the first three demos you know: VSL can obviously sound very very very real and fantstic.

If you are going to listen to the next 10 demos you don't get another impression than "still great".

My opinion: Demos at VSL become more and more very nice works of art but less and less pieces of music for making the "purchasing decision" - demos of what I will get.

So the one sort of demos we have (works of art). The other sort of demos we miss.

Beat

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Beat and Guy for the enormous amount of work they have put in demoing the Vienna instruments. VSL's libraries are the most versatile orchestral samples out there by a long shot, and personally I like the way the company doesn't bang the 'cinematic' drum.

IMHO newbies would find the large VSL articulation menus a little overwhelming - many people who use these products have little or no musical training, and (though experienced composers may find it hard to believe) they might not even know what 'staccato' means. That's why some companies avoid musical terms and instead give their patches crass, guess-the-movie names like 'Pirates French horns'!

@mschmitt said:

...On a side note, I think I saw some posts awhile back that you were thinking about writing a book on midi orchestration, but decided not to. That's unfortunate because there is a real lack of good books on the subject, and I'd certainly buy your book if you wrote it...

I just started to write a sort of tutorial about "How to use all the effects (EQ, Compressor, Panner, Reverbs, Delays etc.) with Samples". This will not be the final title.

This tutorial will contain a bunch of different tasks for each effect to reach certain results with also included audiotracks. The aim is to bring you up to more experiences and tricks with all the effects we have. Of course there will be a short theory and my results for comparing (a possible solution).

The release will be by the end of 2013 I hope.

Beat

@Conquer said:

...I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Beat and Guy for the enormous amount of work they have put in demoing the Vienna instruments.

Thank you very much, but the thanks belong to Guy, William, Jay and other demo producers but no more to me.

Since I'm doing a lot of recordings and other audio tasks I have no more time for producing extra VI-demos.

That's the destiniy of a self-employed person...

Beat

@Beat Kaufmann said:

You don't need to agree with my statement. No problem. But when I read your answer I feel that I probably couldn't transfer my opinion the right way.

Unfortunately English isn't my mother tongue.

Sorry Beat, you are right it is probably a misunderstanding on my part.  You are doing better than I am since I forgot all my German!    

Caught this thread. Interesting comments. Well, I can try these ideas, maybe I can already apply them to the next demo.

Dear Guy,

FWIW: This topic spun painfully out of control--much like, IMO -any- topic that even -smells- like 'criticism' of VSL. Of couse that was not my intent. I hope I've made clear how much I appreciate your work in general, and the personal help you've given me on occasion (above and beyond the call!)

Frankly, I purchased C/S almost solely because of the demo 'Illness And Recovery'... because it was something (vaguely) like what -I- do. I could relate to it. I couldn't 'previsualise' the results with just snippets of Bach. Perhaps I am unworthy. In any event, I would welcome more stuff in a 20th century vein. (whatever -that- means. :D )

Best,

---JC