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  3. Back up Vienna Key
  • M
    M

    OK, I have not heard back from VI Support yet, but I called ILIO, a big distributor of VI products in the USA, and asked them about the Vienna Key and here's what I was told:

    1.     The key connot be backed up.

    2.     The warranty on the key itself is 2 years.  If it goes bad after two years the cost of the key is not covered, and you have to pay a fee for each license that you own.  As Steinberg owns the rights to the key, apparently there is about a $30 fee PER license to replace them.  If the key is lost or stolen, you are most likely OUT-OF-LUCK and would probably have to re-purchase all VI software.  In my case, this would be devastating and I would most likely never buy anything from VI again as long as I live!  :-)

    3.     You can purchase a new key and transfer all licenses from your old key and the new one would carry a warranty of two years.  So, to be safe, replace your key every two years.  It's about $27.00 from ILIO and worth the investment.

    4.     In the case of theft, in my case someone would have to steal my gigantic desktop computer, if you were to file a police report and send it to VI, they may work with you by offering your original software for half-price, but they are under no obligation to do so.  It makes me want to buy a separate safe JUST for my Vienna Key and lock it up every night.

    Some of this I find acceptable, some I think is a bit outrageous.  If my key goes bad out of warranty, I can understand I'd have to buy a new one.  Why on earth I would have to pay Steinberg a $30 fee per license is beyond me!  Also, the fact that all your purchases are registered with VI should be enough proof to them that you bought and own them so that, in the case of theft, you could simply download the software again or get replacement DVDs.  The idea of having to pay for them again is really a bad business decision in my estimation.  Well, perhaps it is a GREAT business decision, but it is a bad customer service choice.  :-)

    I am buying a new key this week and will continune to do so every two years and pray that my house is never robbed!!!!!!!!!!!!

    That's all I nkow so far.  If VI Suport has more to add, I'll share it.

    Mike
  • BillB
    BillB

    How is the start date of the 2 year warrenty period calculated?  Date manufactured? Date purchased?  Date registered?  Other then registering with VSL, how does anyone know how old it is?

    Dorico, Notion, Sibelius, StudioOne, Cubase, Staffpad VE Pro, Synchon, VI, Kontakt Win11 x64, 64GB RAM, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, August Forster 190
  • M
    M

    The License Agreement says things it doesn't really mean.

    An important portion of number 6 states:

    "Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH reserves the right to block its Licenses saved on the lost ViennaKey

    or on any other lost USB eLicenser upon being notified by the registered user of the loss."

    If in fact VSL could do this, there would be no reason not to replace those licenses with new ones.

    As it turns out, while technology probably exists to allow the block, it's just not that simple.

    Legally can an Austrian company block a key held in the United States? Can the United States block a key held in China?

    Can China block a key held in Russia?

    I suspect much of the Agreement was drafted before VSL became VSL... Size matters and as a now global major player,

    there are probably a number of things in the Agreement that can not be enforced world wide.

    Perhaps we'll see a new License Agreement on the new website.
  • D
    D

    Mike, I would have thought that the only way to block the licence would be if the dongle is connected to the Internet. I would imagine that the clause is there to cover VSL in case this blocking actually becomes a possibility. That way there would be no screams from people saying that they didn't sign up for that. A bit like having the Publishing rights of some music for this Universe and all future known Universes.

    Only my speculation though.

    DG
  • M
    M

    Yes DG, that is of course another way to look at it.

    To Bills point... My first key remained on a shelf for a year before I opened it.

    I thank you DG for repeatedly trumpeting the 2 year warranty, many of us would not be aware without you.  [:)]
  • M
    M

    We really need someone from VI to get involved in this discussion.  [:)]

    Please!  We promise not to bite!

    M
  • P
    P

    I've been wondering this as well. I refuse to believe that if something happens to the small and fragile usb stick the owner would be out thousands of dollars. That is way too much of a risk on such a big investment.

    Isn't the point of the elicence control center to manage this type of stuff? If the card gets stolen or broken, why would it be difficult to void the licenses on it and give new ones?

    Applying tangible product rules to software just doesn't make sense. 
  • C
    C
    In my experience with a large other brand of electronic licensing dongle used by a large other brand of virtual instruments, when my key was stolen from me I only had to buy a new key and register it to the same account, and the other software company downloaded my old licenses onto that account. This wasn't written in the license terms but one free replacement was included in case of theft or damage. From what I understand from that experience, the companies that make the dongles can also retrieve licenses from a key that is simply broken (as long as it isn't absolutely demolished) and going that route would not cost you the one free replacement because they would have the old licenses back in their possession. I wonder if VSL or Steinberg have any similar policies but choose to keep them quiet (to prevent handing out so many free licenses) and opt to discuss it with individual customers when the situation arises.

    Just a disclaimer, that experience was not with VSL or Steinberg and does not necessarily represent their policies in any way, I'm just wondering out loud.
  • M
    M
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    @Michael C. said:

    We really need someone from VI to get involved in this discussion. 

    Please!  We promise not to bite!

    M

    In the past when this topic came up, we've seen the thread run many pages before VSL chimed in.

    At that time the only reason they did chime in was because the thread was getting ugly. The more members thought about it,

    the more angry they became. Law suits were threatened, piracy was suggested.... At that point VSL spoke.
  • M
    M
    [quote=Casiquire]In my experience with a large other brand of electronic licensing dongle used by a large other brand of virtual instruments, when my key was stolen from me I only had to buy a new key and register it to the same account, and the other software company downloaded my old licenses onto that account. This wasn't written in the license terms but one free replacement was included in case of theft or damage. From what I understand from that experience, the companies that make the dongles can also retrieve licenses from a key that is simply broken (as long as it isn't absolutely demolished) and going that route would not cost you the one free replacement because they would have the old licenses back in their possession. I wonder if VSL or Steinberg have any similar policies but choose to keep them quiet (to prevent handing out so many free licenses) and opt to discuss it with individual customers when the situation arises.

    The case by case handling of these issues was one of the points of anger in earlier threads...

    One poster felt he was left hanging, while someone else said VSL had worked with them.
  • R
    R

    Hmm..

    Right now this topic is the reason I don't buy any more licenses! It's very hard, I'd love to get the dimension brass stuff next... [:'(]

    According to my eLicenser (that is as old as when VSL requested it) there are quite a few licenses already registered with it. I don't see why I should buy a dongle every two years just to have some (dongle)warranty. As far as I understand it a license don't work this way. I also never got informed by VSL about this matter...

    The german right also says that an owner has the right to backup a license or should be able to retrieve it. In my eyes VSL has very little information flow in that matter. Not sure if VSL would do the trick in my case or a lawyer would do it...

    I hate this dongle because of these reasons. [li]
  • Cyril BlancC
    Cyril BlancC
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    @ralf said:

    The german right also says that an owner has the right to backup a license or should be able to retrieve it. In my eyes VSL has very little information flow in that matter. Not sure if VSL would do the trick in my case or a lawyer would do it...

    I hate this dongle because of these reasons.

    It is the same in France and in most of the countries ; VSL should provide a way to backup the licences

    This subject comes back almost every month

    VSL does not listen

    I have subscribe a juridical insurance

    MacBook Pro M3 MAX 128 GB 8TB - 2 x 48" screen --- Logic Pro --- Mir Pro 3D --- Most of the VI libs, a few Synch... libs --- Quite a few Kontakt libs --- CS80 fanatic
  • M
    M

    I have to say, I am pretty surprised that there has been no one from VI to join this discussion.  I didn't even get a reply from support to my email.  What's the big secret?  What am I missing? 

    BTW, I ordered a new key yesterday.  I'm getting paranoid!

    M
  • M
    M

    Having been through this before, it's like I said earlier.

    VSL allows this topic to run many pages, people become angry, and it sometimes gets ugly.
  • R
    R

    It's pretty simple why VSL doesn't intervene. The subject is tricky. I'm sure that the company will handle each case individually. They mentioned once that if they'd replace lost dongles a lot of user would have suddenly lost their dongles [:P]

    A broken dongle is a different story. Because it's encryptet it cannot be insured if the dongle itself is broken or the software had some kind of malfunction. Who tells you that an inaccessible license is not programmed but an encryption error or something alike? Therefore please stop buying these dongles every two years! Steinberg earns money with a copy protection - that's insane [<:o)]

    If a dongle is corrupt then send it to VSL together with the registration number of a new dongle. A fee per license is reasonable for one, two maybe three licenses. Then it comes to an end. In my case this would cost me so much that I could invest the money for some legal counseling and get the same results.

    My experience so far is that VSL does handle this matter with some reasonable judgement. Hope it stays that way.... And yes - well... I have some good legal insurance [H]
  • M
    M
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    Ralf,

    I don't completely understand your explanation.  It seems to me that if you have a key underwarranty that not only will VSL replace it for free, you will not be charged by Sreinberg for each licnce on the key.  So, it seems like a VERY good idea to replace it every two years.  I would rather spend the 27 dollars to do that than hundreds of dollars to Steinberg for all the licences on my key!!!!!!!!!  So, if a key becomes "corrupted" as you say, but is still under the two year warranty, it sounds like far less ahssle and money to fix the problem.  If it becomes corrupt after the warranty expires, you are subject to the rules of sale set by VSL.  What am I missing?

    Mike

    @ralf said:

    It's pretty simple why VSL doesn't intervene. The subject is tricky. I'm sure that the company will handle each case individually. They mentioned once that if they'd replace lost dongles a lot of user would have suddenly lost their dongles

    A broken dongle is a different story. Because it's encryptet it cannot be insured if the dongle itself is broken or the software had some kind of malfunction. Who tells you that an inaccessible license is not programmed but an encryption error or something alike? Therefore please stop buying these dongles every two years! Steinberg earns money with a copy protection - that's insane

    If a dongle is corrupt then send it to VSL together with the registration number of a new dongle. A fee per license is reasonable for one, two maybe three licenses. Then it comes to an end. In my case this would cost me so much that I could invest the money for some legal counseling and get the same results.

    My experience so far is that VSL does handle this matter with some reasonable judgement. Hope it stays that way.... And yes - well... I have some good legal insurance

  • R
    R

    Mike,

    That's exactly the point: you own the licenses (not the product) and the dongle.

    You cannot prove that a dongle went corrupt or that a software error occured because of the encryption. As long as you have the dongle you act according to the legal terms. If it's lost or stolen - different story. Of course VSL doesn't have to transfer my licenses from one dongle to another but it has to be ensured that this is possible (which is according to the legal terms) One doesn't lose that option just because a hardware warranty expires. The right to transfer owned licenses remains. If for whatever reasons a user cannot do this anymore the legal terms are threatened. Normally a user has the duty to protect its own data (and therefore the right) but in this case that's not possible. Therefore VSL will have to act. A fee can be levy but there must be a so called "Verhältnismäßigkeitsprinzip" (german word, don't know the english vocabulary...sorry) Means a fee may cover the expenses but not much beyond. There's a conflict of rights with the legal terms, that is why VSL remains silent in this matter. Tricky story eh? [:S]

    The same goes with Steinberg of course. Does VSL demand these fees or Steinberg?
  • S
    S

    Dear All,

    Please distinguish between a lost ViennaKey and a broken ViennaKey.
    Here's a summary of how we handle the unfortunate case a ViennaKey is reported as lost or broken:

    • If a ViennaKey breaks within the warranty period (two years) without extraneous cause, the user gets a new ViennaKey and the new license free of charge. That's why we recommend to purchase a new key every two years. The two year warranty starts with the date of purchase of the ViennaKey, so please store your invoice at a safe place.
    • In case the warranty period has expired, or if the user damages a ViennaKey, he will of course have to pay for the new ViennaKey and a handling fee for the new licenses (EUR 20 per contained license). This fee is necessary as we ourselves also have to pay fees to eLicenser for every replacement license we issue.
    • In case of a lost license, we meet our users halfway in this situation by replacing the license for 50% of the full price in case they're not insured.
    • If a lot of licenses are on a broken or lost key, we'll find a solution on an individual basis with the user.

    While we totally understand that both scenarios are a cause for concern, we do our best to help customers that find themselves in this unfortunate situation in every way we can, while at the same time protecting our (and your!) investment in our products. We HAVE to make sure that there are no possibilities for fraud when users report to have lost or damaged their key.

    Many ideas have been discussed in previous threads, and we are considering all technically and legally possible improvements together with the provider of this protection system, eLicenser (owned by Steinberg). The description above explains our current position.

    Please also understand that we cannot give any further information in our forum on how we handle lost or broken keys, since we don't want to provide instructions on how to best outwit our protection system.

    Best,
    Stefan
  • Cyril BlancC
    Cyril BlancC

    Dear Stefan,

    Thanks for your answer

    I have bought my libraries by upgrades of upgrades, I dont know how many licences it is making, but it is a lot of serial numbers !

    Normally I have all the winds and all brass, could it be possible to regroup all those licences to one for the winds and one for the brass ?

    Best

    Cyril

    MacBook Pro M3 MAX 128 GB 8TB - 2 x 48" screen --- Logic Pro --- Mir Pro 3D --- Most of the VI libs, a few Synch... libs --- Quite a few Kontakt libs --- CS80 fanatic
  • S
    S

    Hello Cyril,

    I see that you have almost all our Single Instruments, which as you probably know add up to "big" Vienna Instrument Collections if you have all of them.

    In case your key breaks, I would simply give you replacement licenses for the big Vienna Instrument Collections instead of Single Instruments (where applicable), which would result in significantly less replacement licenses (and lower costs) for you. [:)]

    Best,

    Stefan