World first recording of Felix Draesekes complete Symphonic Poem Frithjof (1865) (42 Minutes)

[fahl5]

I just finished the first recording ever made of Felix Draesekes (http://draeseke.org) Symphonic poem "Frithjof". The Manusskript was brought to Finale by a Member of the international Draeseke-Society, who asked me to make a VSL-Recording with it.

The composer Felix Draeseke is as interesting as underestimated combining the compositional skills of the Leipziger Konservatorium around Mendelssohn and the revolutionary Courage of the Liszt-Friends and was a bit a victim of the ideolical debates of both sides.

The Symphonic poem is with its 42 minutes in three movements longer as every Brahms-Symphony nearly as complex as a smaller Mahler-Symphony. It is passionate romantic music full of orchestral power, harmonic experiments and contrapointal brilliance. It was a great pleasure to do this score with the extended VSL-Cube.

I am quite curious what you think about and would like to know any Idea how I may improve my current render of it. Listen here:

Felix Draeseke: Frithjof Symphonic poem

best

Steffen

[William]

This is a fantastic project, but I have one rather extreme criticism:  this performance has the sound of notation playback, which is everything being played too perfectly by a computer.  I strongly feel that in order to do justice to an orchestral piece, you cannot play it with notation playback but must play each musical line separately into a sequencer (except for certain things like harp or percussion that can be programmed using step note entry or a transcription of notation).  This is because of musically significant inaccuracies which correspond to expressive playing and individual lines giving the true effect of an ensemble playing together.  If one analyzes what happens with a live orchestra, each player has his own line, even if it is only accompaniment chords.  There are no masses of players  performing simultaneously like a computer playback, but each individual player is doing his own line and if he is good it synchronizes with the others.  So there is a subtle but musically crucial combination of both sync and lack of sync.  That subtle combination is essential to getting the true quality of an orchestral performance and cannot be done with a computer doing it all for you no matter how much "humanize" function you use.  Every piece I have ever heard that uses  notation playback sounds wrong in this same way - it is MASSES of sound where there should be individual, musically intelligent and discrete lines. 

So what I would suggest - since this is already in notation form  - is to save it as a MIDI file in Finale, and get that out of Finale and into an actual sequencer where you can work on each track alone, and make each one sound right as a solo.  Each track must be humanized individually so it is no longer simply a part of a mass of sound, and then it must be auditioned and made to sound like a human being actually played it instead of a computer or a keyboard.   You can hear this if you listen to each track separately, very distinctly.  For example you will hear notes overlapping, with too long a release tail, or legato that sounds weird, or how a brass instrument going up high sounds exactly the same as one going low when in reality the player would be almost blowing out his eyeballs trying to play the line.  None of this individuality of line is done by the computer which treats everything the same - low, high, loud, soft, short, long - it's all just data to the computer but a WORLD of difference to a human being.  So one must capture that world of difference.

I hope my criticism is not too irritating. I just feel strongly that notation playback does not properly reproduce orchestral music. But what you have done with the Finale files already can all be used with a final sequencer performance so there is nothing wasted, it is simply not yet complete in my opinion. Sorry to dwell on this so long but that is my honest reaction.

However, I feel this is an important and exciting project!  I was unaware of this composer and really appreciate finding out about him. This is a huge project to do and very impressive.  Also,  your website is excellent and all the work on it very interesting.  There is a wealth of material on it and I started listening to some of the piano works and they sound great.  Do you play those real time?  They sound extremely good. 

Congratulations on all this fine work!

[fahl5]

Oh my god![:^)]

"criticisme" ???

....just irritating????

1) How could one do post thousands of postings since 2002 in a vsl forum without neither recognizing nor knowing the diference between VSL and a notationsoftware playback. Perhaps take a look to the Garritan site to learn more about the difference. For better comparison here you can hear, what the notationplayback of the original Finalefile from the first Movement really sounds like: finale playback Frithjof-1-mvmt

2) Did you seriously still think one have to play each single instrument of a grand romantic orchestra via midiinterface in order to make music authentic? Poor guy you have a difficult life if ever you are trying to produce any good Orchestra-rendering. At least since several of my recordings are used in the VSL-Demozone I know for me that the opposit is true. I really wonder how a rendering of a large romantic piece for a large orchestra will sound produced like you think it should be produced. Perhaps try first what you think nextime. Show me how your romantic Symphonies sound! I really would like to hear your examples [;)]

3) What finally really irritates me is the fact hat you obviously simply dont or rather dont really listened any substantial part of the 42 Minutes Music at all. At least my Webstatistic reveals that the only visitor, who listened to this piece in the time before you posted this did not stay any longer on the Frithjof-site than a few seconds in any case far from beeing at least one single minute. "0m 21s" and "0m 35s" thats all!!!... minus the time to click the player and wait for the preload of the tune - what means: thats just nothing!!!!

If someone states in many words (that even need more time to be read), that each single line should be listened seperatly makes himself a joke, when he himself has not even the patience to listen at least what could be seen only as a reasonable fraction of the recording he attempts to talk about [8-)].

Sorry for being honest to you william, but please listen first more seriously and answer more seriously than.

Still I would be really interested for any substancial and prezise musical criticism, that might help me to improve my current rendering.

best

Steffen

[Philippe BAYLAC]

Please, everyone stay calm and nobody gets hurt ! ;-)

[Philippe BAYLAC]

Hi Steffen, More seriously, thank you for making us discover this composer. I do not understand the backlash in the comments of William, who also complimented you on your excellent work. No doubt about the amount of work done with VSL. The fact remains that some parts sounds much better than others (it is still necessary to have actually listened to everything). I noticed on the violins cuts too dry (release problem: for example Andante con moto, around 1:22-1:25). I think especially the violins too "clean" can surprise our ears accustomed to less precision in a work full of lyricism. The brass - and in a lesser extent the woodwinds- are, for my taste, too much in front. Anyway, thanks for sharing, and congratulations on this huge task, that sounds very well overall. Regards. Philippe.

[fahl5]

Hi Phillip,

Thanks for your kind remarks. This is just what I was looking for. Sorry for being perhaps a bit to clear about William, but talking something totally general about an alledged notaionsoftware playback is really way of from what you can listen here,

to improve this recording I am just looking for concret hints and proposals like you gave me to look once more on deails. Tomorrow I will take a lookj for the Violins of the Andante.

Its funny that you wish the Brass an woods less dominant, Working with the Woman from the Draeseke-society in several moments she pushes me to make the Brass and woods even more dominant. (Our Deal was: While I gave her several long lists to correct the score, she provided  some lists for Ideas to improve the recoding), It wood be interesting to learn, at which moments you feel that the winds are to much now. - In respect of the Winds one should perhaps keep in mind, that Draeseke visited Wagner finishing his Tristan, for several times while Draeseke himself was ocupied with his Frithjof.

Since a long piece is a long piece I also can imagine, that you might think about totally diferent passages. It would be great to have the time-data fo all relating passages. that deserves more care for the winds (like you named me for the strings in Mvmt.II ).

best

Steffen

[Philippe BAYLAC]

Hi Steffen, when i say that the brass are too much in front, it is not that they are too much dominant, but you feel them too close, like in front of the violins. So, it is just a matter of depth. I totaly agree with the woman from the Draeseke society : you must here them more, but at their good place (behind), with more dynamics (you speak about Wagner, it is exactly the good reference). Best. Philippe

[William]

@Another User said:

Show me how your romantic Symphonies sound!

 

　

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/williamkersten

Here are some others:

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/WilliamKersten1

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kersten5

　

Also, demos on the VSL website:

Albinoni Adagio:

http://vsl.co.at/en/67/3920/4687.vsl

In the Steppes of Central Asia:

http://vsl.co.at/en/67/3920/4697.vsl

Mars and Neptune from the Planets:

http://vsl.co.at/en/67/3920/4701.vsl

Vaughn Williams 2nd Second 2nd Movement:

http://vsl.co.at/en/67/3848/4689.vsl

Also some originals at:

http://vsl.co.at/en/67/3848/4689.vsl

http://vsl.co.at/en/67/3848/4689.vsl">http://vsl.co.at/en/67/3848/4689.vsl

This person is what I dislike most about the internet.

Completely arrogant people who don't care how obnoxious they are or how badly they treat anyone else.  I was trying to offer constructive critisicm and seriously think everything I wrote in that post, and this guy acts like I am a total idiot and treats me like garbage.

I am not putting up with this kind of crap anymore from these internet lowlifes. 

VSL is a great company and I always wanted to support what they do which is the best sample library on the planet. But this Forum is filled with really hateful, obnoxious people whose main goal is to put anybody else down. I am resigning from this website, from this Forum, and from the endless bickering and garbage from odious people like this guy because there are more important things in life to do than get insulted by fools who know nothing about me.   It isn't worth it.  

[fahl5]

Hi Phillip, OK I think I understand what you mean. I expect this would be much easier to correct as soon I managed to upgrade my system to MIR, which allows obviously much easier and more prezise to locate the different Instrumentgruops. Actually I have to come along with the convoluion reverb of the Vienna ensemble. Ofcourse I will do another render as soon I managed to upgrade.

Hi William, It seems as if you get emotional, what I simply dont and still will not do. After listening to some of your cdBaby-stuff it irritates me even more how especially you can talk here about anything like a notationsoftwareplayback.

I would have appreciated, if you had helped me with real concrete criticism of exact named passages like Phillip does. But sure that would have made it necessary for you to listen seriously what you are talking about. If you are not interested in it, it is really a pitty but it is up to you.. No one can force you, but no one can force me to find any substantial help in the way you posted instead.

Just let me make it clear the following is not my diction, but yours, judge yourself how substantial, constructiv and helpful this might ever be:

"But this Forum is filled with really hateful, obnoxious people whose main goal is to put anybody else down. I am resigning from this website, from this Forum, and from the endless bickering and garbage from odious people like this guy because there are more important things in life to do than get insulted by fools who know nothing about me. It isn't worth it."

This is defintly not the way I wanted and will ever comunicate with anyone. Still I hope your astonishing vivd temper will not keep anyone else from a serious participation of the detailed discussion about the music and its rendering I shared here .

best Steffen

[GoranTch]

...this forum really can be a god damn kindergarten sometimes...

Steffen's reaction to William's post was inappropriate both in tone and content - this is not a way to react to criticism made in good will (even if strong in content). William's reaction was understandable but over the top, in tone as in content.

So, gentlemen - please pull yourself together and show some restraint...

Back to the topic -  unfortunately, I won't have the possibility to listen to Internet streams until the 23rd of August, which means I cannot comment on the recording as I don't have the means to listen to it at the moment (I'll post a comment as soon as this changes). However, I like the idea as Felix Draeseke is a grand composer whose music truly touches the stars and is shamefully underperformed and underrecorded today (it is a disgrace for concert programming in Germany that his music is practicaly nonexistant in German concert halls).

For those interested in his other major orchestral works, I can recommend the four symphonies, Gudrun ouverture and Serenade for Orchestra - all grand and inspired pieces, even if not attractive in an immediate way - Dreaseke's music needs a while to grow on you, but when it does, it is there to stay.

[fahl5]

Hi Goran

Thank you for your interest in my project I' am looking forward for new Ideas how I may improve it, as soon you have the chance to listen.

I' am sorry if I have been perhaps a bit to clear in my reaction on Williams statement, but I cannot find any inapropriate and personal degrading wording not founded in clear facts in my reaction in opposit to williams both postings, wich infact increasingly inspire to have severe doubts in what you call "good will".

Still I think it is in the content quite inapropriate to talk about a huge recording just from having heard not even an reasonable fraction of it, neither to be able to become concrete with any kind of criticism and Ideas what might be improved. I dont feel any anger against william as a person, but am realy surprised about his so little founded and so less conrete but large and as he self put it "extreme" first comment.

As I always said, what I am interested in is constructive criticism, and this must be at least founded enough to become concrete and comprehensible in the real audible music.

So please William dont feel offended as a person, since I never intended nor meant to nor did offend you as a person, but please become constructive and prezise and not merely general and "extremly" degrading in your criticism. At least I think this is, what the forum of a great company like VSL deserves.

best

Steffen

[Errikos]

You really think that William can't tell the difference between VSL and Finale sounds having worked with the library for 10 years?!? It's not enough that you actually make it hard to perceive any difference between them (as the files do sound EXACTLY like playback from Sibelius/Finale), but William didn't even suggest that. He hinted that you might have used the Cube to do this, but it sounds like you just had the notation program play the file back itself, using VSL instruments through Vienna Ensemble!! You having been a member since 2005 should also have known he meant that...

William also, very politely, gave you four paragraphs of advice, and instead of you being grateful that someone took the time to listen to your work - which you put up for criticism (for better or worse) - and tried to advise you on how to better your results, you became petulant and insolent. He was never degrading or disrespectful in his post. My suggestion would be to apologize to William profusely (instead of "getting even more irritated"), as you can see most people here feel that you have misrepresented yourself, not William.

[Chuck Green]

Hi Steffen,

I can see that this project was a very large undertaking for you.  There were many parts in the composition that I thought were really good and then some, that I think could use some work.  I've read all the previous post and agree with much that has been said both good and bad.  The thing I'm hearing in your piece is that "yes", at times it does sound rigid.  I dissagree with William to the point that the only way you can produce realistic sounding piece is with a sequencer.  I've used both.  For me, the jury is still out (I'm still experimenting with using each).

For me, using the standard humizing process in the various scoring packages today, still fall short in comparison to live recordings that I have listened to.  Playing each part in a sequencer does seem to result in a more realistic performance.

That being said, that doesn't mean it can't be done in a scoring package.  Let's face it, when it's all said and done, both are programs that intreprete MIDI 1s & 0s.  It is just how you approach it is different.  I prefer looking at a score rather than a bunch of bars and lines.  So for me, I'm moving away from the sequencer to giving a full-court-press on using Sibelius.  It doesn't matter which package, they all have their strong and weak points.  The idea I'm trying to relay here is that is really shoudn't matter what you use as long as you program each part to sound realistic.  Sometimes, for some instruments and passages, the built-in capability of a scoring package, for me anyway, seems to work ok.  On other passages, I have to dig in and adjust note attacks, releases, velocities, pauses, and tempo in order to get a natural feel.  This can all be done in a scoring package, but I must admit, it takes longer to finesse than playing it live in a sequencer one part at a time.

As far as your performance, yes there are areas that sound really nice.  On the other hand, there are passages, that to me, do sound like they were done on a computer.  I think the biggest thing that hit me was the attack and release of some of the passages, especially the more legato ones.  This can be adjusted using any scoring package.  It's a matter of overriding some of the default playback and entering values that sound correct or adjusting the VI player attack and release controller for example.

Also, if you not already doing so, I would suggest looking at using Velocity X-Fade to control your expression.  This is a great feature in VSL.  For example, when a string section is playing a legato run, the lower notes should have a slightly lower velocity and loudness than the upper notes.  Using the scoring packages function to increase and decrease expression/velocity as the run progresses will add a degree of realism to the final performance.

Just some thoughts here Steffen.  In my own experience thus far, yes, it takes a long time to plug and chug the notes into the score but for me anyway, it takes much, much, much longer to finesse each passage for each part afterwards in order to get that "real performance sound".  I think you have a great start here.  Spending a little time now tweeking will be in my opinion, time well spent.

Take care..... 

[fahl5]

All was done in constant contact and personal meetings with the woman from the International-Draeseke-Society this was very helpful because she was quite familiar with many of Draesekes Works for many years, and seemed to be much more delighted about the aleady reached results than anyone here at all.

If anyone here really did not hear any of the work spent at least in comparisson with the linked notationplayback than i really cannot help him. And what is more decisive, since someone like that cant hear what is done and what still must be done therefor he is simply and definitly not experienced enough and able to help me to improve what I have done.

In short: there is no reasonable musical judgment without serious listening of the music before!

But still I hope one or another more expirienced guy might find my recording an would provide more detailed and founded Hints to improve my work.from the perspective of a real VSL-User.

best Steffen

[fahl5]

@Errikos: Oh come on not the same mistake again !

You can not talk about 42 Minutes music summing all up with a simple "it sounds". This is no critizism at all.

Tell me which passage you think should be thought over again and why and I'll be glad. If you can not, comments like that give me strong doubts if you really heard anything you are talking about and more likely just seems to be dumb bashing, inspired only by the fact that other seem to do the same.

I can likely give you easily much more than four paragraphs of advice for all and nothing all the day long. But sorry, I am interested in real Ideas to improve my render and that was what I asked for in my first posting. And neither william nor you did even name a single note for which you might have indeed an Idea to improve it. I cant see any missrepresenting in sharing a new recording with the question for Ideas to improve it, but I think it is not inappropriate to look for real answers on real questions.

Still it is anything but not polite what william stated still totally unproofed about a recording that he scarcly listened at all befor his long posting. Respect for your comunity-loyality but please think next time twice if this does really make sense.

Steffen

[Errikos]

"True is, that this recording was completely, diligently and detailed edited in Cubase 6.5 for nearly a month of daily wholeday work with thinking about nearly every single note comparing, the manuscript, the sequence and the audible result with what each musical situation demands. and than manually programming articulation assignments (my strings-expressionmap allone has had more than thirty different articulation used in each of the stringtracks) thousands of velocity-xfades, ControlerChannel editings, Timecurve alteration for matching all musical demands for the ingenius 42 Minutes of the whole composition."

Well, sorry, but it sounds like playback from notation using VSL. For the most part. To me at least. You say my ears are crap? I won't dispute it; it's not worth it. However,

There is no mistake.

a) Why do I have to listen to the full 42' to give advice? I can listen to 30" and be able to give criticism and advice, as long as it is about those 30". In any case I didn't post to give you sequencing advice (or to dumb bash you, and neither did William). If you are so sensitive about your work and results don't post them here (I don't). By the way, I listened to two whole movements and I stand by what I said, even if it is just an aphoristic summation.

b) You can "easily give much more than 4 paragraphs of advice for all and nothing all day long"? Really? I'll be waiting to see you giving endless diatribes of advice to others like William has done all these years - but you haven't! All these years! So his time is less valuable than yours then? If you cannot appreciate the time William and others here gave for your benefit just because they didn't listen to the whole 42'... (Please... they are seasoned professionals, they really don't need to hear the whole thing to know what you're about, especially if your posted piece is that long...)

c) If you really want to hear it then, my guess is that William's criticism and advice was not specific enough for your liking because you don't believe your work is problematic in toto, and that you need to apply what he suggests in toto. Once you fix those problems that apply to the whole mix, only then can one address individual nuances.

However, have it your way; it's still a freeish world thank God.

P.S.: An overture of mine - admittedly composed for huge forces and choir - took about a month to "realize" in Logic, using VSL and EW choir, and I'm still not completely happy with it. Do you know how long the piece is? Four and a half minutes or so... If I'm not mistaken, it took someone like Jay Bacal two months (or more?) for his Rite of Spring. And you expect to impress people here with "a whole month" spent on a forty-two minute work?!?!? Don't worry at all! It sounds exactly as it should for a month's worth of sequencing...

[Chuck Green]

@Errikos said:

Well, sorry, but it sounds like playback from notation using VSL. For the most part. To me at least. You say my ears are crap? I won't dispute it; it's not worth it. However,

There is no mistake.

a) Why do I have to listen to the full 42' to give advice? I can listen to 30" and be able to give criticism and advice, as long as it is about those 30". In any case I didn't post to give you sequencing advice (or to dumb bash you, and neither did William). If you are so sensitive about your work and results don't post them here (I don't). By the way, I listened to two whole movements and I stand by what I said, even if it is just an aphoristic summation.

I couldn't agree more.  This thread has been bothering me all day long and as the day progessed, the more pis-ed off I've become about what transpired here.  I see this forum as a great tool to present our work and have it critqued by some very talented individuals.  William in particular is one individual I've looked up to and become delighted when he takes the time to critique my work.  In fact, I'm not afraid to even say it.  The whole entire time I was working on Haydn's Allegro - Symphony No. 31, I was thinking to myself, "I hope William finds this work pleasing".  He's always given great advice and I have as I'm sure many other's have on this site, taken it all to heart.

I strongly believe that if you post something here on this site, you as an individual need to be open minded and willing to hear the opinions of others.  You will never please everyone but if you ask, you need to listen to the response even if it's not what you wanted to hear.

I can only hope William returns.  It would be an absolute shame to see him leave this forum over a piece of music that doesn't even come close in performance and MIDI techique as compared to some of the compositions I've heard William produce over the years.

[mcelvogue]

Hi Steffen,
   I would like to also express my disappointment in terms of reading that William may not be returning to the forum. I fought all day not to get into this thread and whilst I have been trying to avoid feeding it, I also feel that in terms of the response William gave to the question asked, I don't really understand why the extreme tone of aggression, animosity and plain rudenesss.

[fahl5]

To summarize:

1) there is obviously just one person here who is able to become concrete about the recording I shared for discussion

2) there are many people who obviously scarcly read what is already said by whom but spent many time to ad some insults on me without being able to proof what they are insulting. It is a pitty but this turns this thread to a kind of vsl shitstorm against me, instead of discussing what I still am interested to discuss in substance (if ever anyone here is able to.)

3) what is still very surprising, that obviously there are at least two participants that meanwhile working for long time with vsl, could not recognize the difference between  a notationplayback like this (the score of the 1. Movement I received just loaded as xml into Cubase):

from a however imperfct but already in many aspects diligently edited cubase sequence of the first Movement like that, which I intended to discuss for possible improvements:

This is really no good proof of musical ears or professional experience and I could only understand it looking on the Time which was spent to listen, by those guys what they did not criticised but more likely degraded to a alledgly automaticly "humanized" but absolutly not edited render.

To point on this extreme superficial judgment seem to be regarded by nearly all contributors as aggressive, while it seem to be regarded a great loss, if someone threatens to quit this forum, who criticises as friendly and substancial as this: 

"I am not putting up with this kind of crap anymore from these internet lowlifes.

 VSL is a great company and I always wanted to support what they do which is the best sample library on the planet. But this Forum is filled with really hateful, obnoxious people whose main goal is to put anybody else down. I am resigning from this website, from this Forum, and from the endless bickering and garbage from odious people like this guy because there are more important things in life to do than get insulted by fools who know nothing about me. It isn't worth it."

Sorry, but that does not proof a smart way to come along with criticism, however "seasoned professional" one pretends to be formulating things like that.. 

@Errikos, if you really dont hear the difference everybody can easily hear by comparing the real notationplayback I have already linked and even cant hear what everybody can see in comparing thoses screenshots, than I hope for yopu, that your musical Ideas are good enough to compensate what your ears obviously are not able to hear.

@ Tom: Just show me where I have that much lost "the common courtesies" as william did already in his second posting.  Please name me any as "ignorant rude" formulation I have written, which is only in parts as ignorant as william was pretending that he could recognize an totally unedited "notationsoftware playback" sorry this what william himself called "extreme" was already as rude as ignorant, and I have alredy proofed enough, that this has nothing common with seasoned professionalism or common courtesies.

Could you please show me whereever the fact that I have already produced a couple VSL-Demos to was use by me to be "disrespectful". I just justified with that hint, that one can make good VSL-Renders by diligently editing a cubase sequence and must not play every track via midiinterfaces, which seems to me especially in respect to the strings quite strange, since there is on one hand no String-instrument interface and the inaccuraties between the single players could not be produced by "playing" the track of a whole section since orchestrasamples are mostly sectionsamples. No one will produce a stringsection with samples of 20 Soloviolins! So his "advice" seemed to neither convincing nor really professional and listening to some of his tunes I was really surprised how he could pretend things like that  Anyway, William is not the wholy God, who we all should just beleive and worshp what ever he says, he himself must be ready to be criticised as he criticises others. The main difference to my kind of criticism, what really seemed to hurt him most, was that I just criticised concrete and based on proofable facts, what he could not debate infact and therefor obviously lost his "common courtesie" already in his second post

I never want to make william leave this forum, but if he think himself being  a seasoned professional, I would expect, that he could and would criticise and behave like one.

Steffen