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  4. Symphony No. 31 in D Major (Hornsignal) - Franz Joseph Haydn

  • Symphony No. 31 in D Major (Hornsignal) - Franz Joseph Haydn

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    Hi VSL Community,

    I've just completed the first movement of Haydn's Symphony No. 31 in D Major (Hornsignal) entitled Allegro. This is my first attempt at using Sibelius 7, custom soundsets and Vienna MIR Pro. I would appreciate any comments that any of you may have. Please don't be hesitant on being critical when commenting. I want to learn and become a better MIDI programmer. Your comments good or bad will help me reach that goal. I appreciate you taking the time to listen and critique.

    Symphony No. 31 (Hornsignal) - 01. Allegro - Using Vienna Konzerthaus GrosserSaal venue.

    Based on the critique's received, I've attempted a second mix using a smaller venue:

    Symphony No. 31 (Hornsignal) - 01. Allegro - Using Vienna Konzerthaus MozartSaal venue / VSL Exciter & VSL Multiband in Master Bus.
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    The performance sounds very good.  I seemed to notice a slightly odd nasal sound on the louder horn accents, as if there was some EQ that was needed, but was not sure about it.  Maybe  the overall reverb responding differently to that frequency?   But anyway it is great to hear this Haydn and the MIDI sounds very natural and expressive.
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    Hi Chuck, very beautiful performance, really. But we lose details because the reverb is, for my taste, much too large. What venue do you use ? Grosse Saal ? Anyway, great job. Bravo ! Best regards. Philippe
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    Hi Chuck,

          great job on this piece and looking forward to the other movements. I think, like Philippe, my preference for the overall mix would be with either less reverb or if this is a particular venue from MIR, maybe trying a different venue. Having said that, it sounds very convincing in terms of the arrangement and levels within the arrangement and this does not prevent me from enjoying the music within the piece.

    I've heard much more reverb on live orchestral recordings so I know this isn't just an issue with "virtual" arrangements. I have hit much the same problems on tests I'm doing at the moment and I am also trying to find the right balance between venue/overall reverb length and then using the mIracle reverb to smooth out the overall mix. I'm nowhere near what you have acheived and I can hear that you're not far off where I want to be so hopefully you may share what reverbs/venues you are using when you get to your optimal mix?

    Regards,

         Tom
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    Hi William,

    First of all, thank you for taking the time to critique my performance.  I'm not sure what is happening with the horns.... my thoughts are that I might need to adjust the velocity curves I have set up in VI-Pro.  I may have too much strong of velocity as compared to the actual volume in places.  I will have to experiment with that some more.

    I own two professional recordings of the symphony.  The first one is the original one I feel in love with.  It is an LP of "The Little Orchestra of London" conducted by Leslie Jones.  The second is a recent purchase by "Nicolaus Esterhazy Sinfonia" conducted by Bela Drahos.  It's amazing the differences between the two performance styles.  The horns in Jones's version or more mellow compared to Drahos's brassy and punchy style.  I tried to use the best of both versions, trying to find middle-ground with the horns.

    I'm using dimension horns 1,2,3, & 4, each having a different timbre and texture which I believe is a good thing but maybe one or two of them are sticking out more.  Also the venue may be playing into the problem.  I'm using GrosserSaal but may need to switch to MozartSaal to gain a little more intimacy which may correct what we are hearing with the horns.  In the beginning, I found myself switching between the two venues and finally settling on GrosserSaal.  I may have made the wrong choice here.  I'm going to re-work the piece using MozartSall and when finished, post it for a re-listen to see if the changes improve the horn texture.  Again William, thanks for listening and providing comments.   Your thoughts are very valuable to me.
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    Hi Phillppe and Tom,

    I'm very happy you liked my performance on this piece.  As I mentioned to William in the post above, I was struggeling in the begging on deciding between GrosserSaal and MozartSaal.  At first, I was using the Orchestral String Ensembles and found them to be too large.  I swiched to the Chamber variety which helped.  Finally, I layered the solo strings with each ensemble inside the VI-Pro Player while lowering the internal slider 12 decibals so they wouldn't stand out too much but it did provide more defination to the sound.  I also used a secondary Mic which may have worked against me from the standpoint of instrument clarity.

    As I mentioned eariler in my reponse to William, I was using both of my recordings as a base line to work from with Leslie Jones version, I felt had a larger space than the Drahos recording.  I was going to start the second movement today, "Adagio" but based on your comments, feel that my time would be better spent, re-working Allegro with a smaller venue first before moving on.  I really want to get "That Sound" correct from the beginning and then build from that moving forward.  I totally appreciate both of your reponses.... it really helps getting various opinions especially when two or more individuals feel the same about something.

    BTW Tom, I didn't use MIRacle in this performance - again, trying for clarity -- just MIR and no additional EQ.
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    Hi William, Phillippe & Tom,

    Based on your critique's, I've attempted a second version of "Allegro" using the MozartSaal venue instead of GrosserSaal.  After some experimenting, I ended up placing the VSL Exciter and VSL Multiband in the Master Bus within MIR and added a secondary MIC which to me, provided some fullness to the overall mix.  I am curious if you find the second mix as an improvement to the first.  I placed a link in my initial post and left the original there as well for comparison.  

    I really appreciate you taking the time to listen and evaluate.

    Thanks,

    Chuck
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    Hi Chuck,
         I much prefer your second venue/mix. I can really now hear more of the detail in the music and for me anyway, I think this sounds great. I still think however that there some of the finer details in things like the trills on the strings and also some of the horn sections where the shorter notes are sounding still a little lost in the reverb. I think though that this may just be my preference/choice rather than anything specifically wrong with the mix. As it stands, the mix sounds convincing, balanced and with good dynamics - in other words, I can't see too much to change in the mix.
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    Hi Tom,

    Glad you found the second mix moving in the right direction.  I believe I like it better as well.  Yes, as I listened to it this morning once again, I felt there needed to be a few adjustments also.  I'm still playing with the Sibelius/VSL soundsets to get them triggering just right.  The trills is one area of concern as well as the horns soft staccato passages.  I also heard a few spots where the tempo needs just a little adjusting.  Sometime I think it's best to put the work down for a week or so and then come back and listen.  New things seem to crop up then - a new set of ears so to speak.  Any way, thanks for taking a second listen.

    I used MozartSaal and a variation of Dietz's "Wide & Clear" setup.  For the most part I used the default instrument volumes but I found myself  adjusting the ~C7 (volume) value for some of the instruments in various phrases.  The recordings I have do not match the markings on the orignal score so I kept my score marks the same and adjusted the volume based on what I was hearing when listening to the live performance.  Hope that helps.
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    Thanks Chuck,

          it helps quite a lot for me to understand this. I am too working through one of Haydn's symphonic movements and also trying a different workflow with Sibelius directly into VE. It certainly is a different challenge (for me anyway) working from an old score and hearing it as notated originally (or as close as it can be) and then listening to the numerous live, commerically recorded versions. Thanks for the information and best of luck with the new workflow.

    Tom
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    Hi Chuck, is was sure you was using the Grosse Saal ...;-). The Mozart Saal is much more convenient for this music (from my personal experience with Mir, ie small, small, small one ...). Philippe
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    Your welcome Tom.  Anytime.
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    Hi Phillippe,

    Yes....  When I first started I was trying to get a bigger sound than the recordings but in reality, it just didn't sound right -- too large.  Thanks again for the critique.....

    Take care...
  • PaulP Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on