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  • Section made of Oboes and English Horn, also the trombone section

    So I was building a template and playing with some ideas.  When a true orchestra makes a section of Oboes with Solo English Horn, does he usually play in exact unison with them or does he play one octave below?  It seems he's a great fit for setting up a divisi in the section but in general practice does he just blend in with the section playing the same pitch or does he play his own an octave lower?

    Lastly, what partnership does the trombones typically layer with in the orchestra with classical music?  The Cello or Bass?  I seem to have enough layering with basson and french horns in the middle lower register with Cellos and was thinking of putting him with the basses.  I know if it sounds right it is right, but is this correct orchestrational use of the intstrument?

    Thanks,

    Maestro2be


  •  The English Horn is a fairly late addition to the orchestra, and so is used either as a solo (for example in Franck's Symphony which has a famous English horn solo in the second movement) or added to the oboes playing whatever the composer decides he wants.  There is no really correct way and it is completely up to your judgement.  Naturally, if you simply double the other instruments it will be more boring and less rich sounding harmonically. 

    Trombones are also a somewhat late addition to the orchestra concurrent with Beethoven.  In the 5th symphony you can hear the effect of the trombones being added to the last movement, to give more power to the lower range in general.  They don't really simply double the cellos or bass, but are added when more emphasis or depth is needed in a strong fortissimo as Beethoven does there.  But in later orchestras, there is absolutely no necessarydoubling with cellos or basses (unless the music is very simple) and the trombones are simply used for their own tone quality and to give a harmonic basis in a large orchestral tutti, supplemented by the added bass of the tuba.  If you listen to Mahler's symphonies, you can hear great use of trombones both as solo (int eh 3rd symphony in particular) and in general scoring, for their timbral effect as well as reinforcing a loud section.  So this all boils down to there is no "correct" way to use them, but simply remembering how they are very powerful and would naturally be used to play lower harmonies in fortissimos, though also have beautiful timbral qualities in quiet sections, either as a "chorale" like effect ( as in the Brahms first last movement the first occurence of the trombone ensemble playing the beautiful chordal section) or soloistically. 


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    @cgernaey said:

    So I was building a template and playing with some ideas.  When a true orchestra makes a section of Oboes with Solo English Horn, does he usually play in exact unison with them or does he play one octave below?  It seems he's a great fit for setting up a divisi in the section but in general practice does he just blend in with the section playing the same pitch or does he play his own an octave lower?

    Lastly, what partnership does the trombones typically layer with in the orchestra with classical music?  The Cello or Bass?  I seem to have enough layering with basson and french horns in the middle lower register with Cellos and was thinking of putting him with the basses.  I know if it sounds right it is right, but is this correct orchestrational use of the intstrument?

    Thanks,

    Maestro2be

    You shouldn't think of woodwinds (or any other) orchestra section in terms of a "block" to be combined with other blocks in some "correct" way or another - this is an extremly limited (and extremly limiting) approach to orchestration. William has rightly pointed out that there is no single "correct" usage or "correct" doubling of orchestral instruments.


  • Thanks William, that's good stuff.  I think I need to pull out a few symphonic scores and look at how those sections get treated in those symphonies.  I just wanted to be able to add new color mixtures to my pieces at times and I think having the ability to solo them all, double them up or use them individually in places they may not normally be used could create a nice effect.  I have been studying some good orchestration material that has helped me very much but at times I find certain instruments don't blend to well.  For instace the oboes, I find them a bit hard to "blend" and more easily to use them at a time that I want something to stick out.

    I just was curious if there is a specific general rule to those instruments that tames them or places them well.  I have at times done some of my best work "on accident".  I have put together orchestrations and said, wow that sounds so incredibly real.  Then realized, it was a combination of a more stellar orchestration pattern and proper use of the sampled instrument.  As I find just because you have the theory down on the orchestration, the sampled instrument tends to jump out because of how it was recorded.  Mixing in MIR has helped a lot for me in this area.

    Maestro2be


  • PaulP Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on