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  4. Isn't VSL just one step from its own...
  • E
    E

    I was referring to a "perfect" world where everything would be as seamless as the music going from Mozart's head - to the manuscript - to the ensemble players - to the audience's ears. However the first step towards that utopia - which is for VSL to complete a DAW environment (as we have today from Logic, Cubase, etc.) for their own product - is very feasible to my lay-mind. Why VSL instead of Logic et al? Because those DAWs are conceived and structured with the pop-head in mind (drums, loops, distortions, etc.), whereas the VSL offering could be the first DAW to cater to the symphonic composers' needs and requirements. In my relatively uneducated opinion, with MIR, VE, VI, and VS, they are most of the way there already. They can leave the integrated notator out of it for now.

    And they are already catering to a specialized market, I am not suggesting they compete with Pro Tools for all the MTV rappers. I'm guessing however, that most of 'serious' and Hollywood musicians would at least include this equipment in their arsenal. VSL, if nothing else, brings out wonderful products. If they made this DAW, I'm sure it would be very lucrative to a lot of professionals, as well as to many a deluded hopeful.
  • C
    C

    you have a very precious specialized idea of what a symphonic composer does that's oh-so-very-different than what someone who degrades themselves with drums and distortion does... that ghettoizes either. Music is music. DAWs are made to do some things which aren't for you. The reasons for that are market-driven. VSL is a niche market that seems to you to target to someone resembling you. I'm just saying, in all likelihood the market share is far too small.

    I am using many drums by VSL, and one of my go-to distortions is in Vienna Suite, the Exciter.

    Stravinsky was ravaged by critics for his emphasis on drums in Le Sacre was he not? Fistfights ensued, even. Nearly one hundred years ago though. Reactionaries still rank like this to make themselves feel superior to something they don't follow?
  • G
    G

    Missionwise, I am floating somewhere between the rappers and the movie composers. 

    When I "get my feet wet" with the VSL stuff, I would love to be able to bring some acoustic tracks, (vocals, live percussion, acoustic guitars etc), into the VE/VI Pro environment, complete with the Vienna suite, and mix them there with some VSTIs.

    Even if the DAW doesn't record audio, being able to do ALL the MIDI stuff, render it to audio, edit the audio, would be sweet!

    In terms of competing with others, this would be for a different type of musician. I wouldn't say that Live, Reason, Fruity Loops are trying to compete with anyone, they seem to do things differently. The people use buy them do so because they suit their way of working.

    This app that we are discussing would be doing thins to suit the way we like to work.

    My GY$0.02.
  • BillB
    BillB

     > Notion 3 has decided to go for piano roll handling of the time element

    Where does this information come from?

    Dorico, Notion, Sibelius, StudioOne, Cubase, Staffpad VE Pro, Synchon, VI, Kontakt Win11 x64, 64GB RAM, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, August Forster 190
  • E
    E

    @civilization 3: Are you comparing yourself and the gazillion other droves of beat-mongers to Stravinsky?!?!?! He was maybe the most original of all composers (with Wagner and Ives), and you compare him to a whole sub-culture numbering hundreds of millions tapping on their mice?!?! And you compare me to the reactionaries in the Paris audience?? Why? Are you composing things that are so groundbreaking that my ignorant ears would rebel against that kind of new greatness? Prove it then. Post something here or PM me some of your stuff so I can begin a fist-fight with myself. Don't start talking again about things you don't understand - stick to computers and studio matters which you seem to know. It wasn't the use of drums by the way that riled the crowds back then...

    What does "music is music" mean? How is that statement useful or meaningful? Do you listen to a lot of F. Kalkbrenner then? Why not? Music is music isn't it? Why do you have personal preferences if that's the case?

    In short, had VSL (and similar companies) never existed, you would still be able to realize your music through computers. A lot of us wouldn't be. And I don't think the modern symphonic market is so nichey. Not as long as movies with orchestral scoring are being made.
  • G
    G

    Take a deep breath, folks, and let us disagree in a cordial and non-personal manner. We don't want this tread locked too, we want the DAW, right?! [:D]
  • clruweC
    clruweC

    Hello everyone! I just thought I would re-open/bump up this thread again... Just had Sibelius crash on me 13 times in a row... Possibly becasue it can't handle 24 instruments (each with its own keyswitch ossia staff) playing a 20 min suite. Bummer! If I had a million bucks....
  • M
    M
    Yes but by re-opening this, you've allowed some of us for the first time to witness (Errikos), go from hero to zero in his own thread. Errikos addresses Civilization 3's Stravinsky comparison, without addressing his own condesending tone. It was that tone which upset Civilization 3, and (OTHERS), in the first place... Errikos appears to be of the belief that (Symphonic Orchestration) is the only valid form of musical expression. I get that.... But don't be surprised when those who disagree, vigorously push back.
  • clruweC
    clruweC

    Well to be frank, I try to ignore those things when they happen (which seem to happen in almost every forum of any sort). I'm interested in reviving the VSL notation software idea and see if there are a lot of people out there that feel the same way....
  • C
    C
    Back to the original topic (aka turning a blind eye to the other stuff going on) I came into the forums searching for exactly this type of a thread because I knew I couldn't be the only one thinking it's a good idea. The way I imagined it would work would be like this. When you first install the Vienna Notation, or whatever it would be called, you either tell it which libraries you have or which libraries you'd like for it to use, OR it just checks which licenses you have downloaded. This informs what I'm going to call Vienna Notation (VN) which articulations are available to you. As you input notes into the notation program, it automatically drops them onto a piano roll as well. That seems simple enough. At the same time, however, VN will be looking at which articulations would be best suited for what you just placed onto the score. This should also be fairly simple to do, and a setup like this actually makes MORE sense than what we currently have. For instance, PLAY takes information about what you're playing and picks which articulations are best. So if you play repeated notes, it automatically plays back repetitions. VN would have the advantage over PLAY because it would be able to look at the score as a whole. It wouldn't be constantly struggling to keep up with what you're playing--it would know what you're going to play in advance.

    From that point, VN is pretty much making a custom matrix based on the software you have and sending that information to VEPro. It will see if you have a run approaching and it will be able to then play back a timestretched run from the appropriate instrument. There should also be an "alternate" option where if you don't like a particular articulation that the software has preselected, you can control-click or option-click or something and see which other ones would work. For instance it's playing a staccato but you don't like the sound of the samples playing, you can control-click or right-click or something and it gives a dropdown list of articulations it can substitute for you, like spiccato for example.

    I know that this will get hit with comments about being more work than it's worth, however I think people who say so are only seeing a small part of a bigger picture. With new libraries from EWQL, Symphobia, 8dio, LASS, Spitfire, etc., we've come almost as far as we can go with the current method of sample playback. My belief is that, far from being a niche product, something like VN would not only be the logical next step in sampling, but in fact we're a few steps behind by NOT having anything like it yet. For the first time ever the sample player would know what sample will be played next. The implications of something like that are astounding.

    Imagine how many samples are in each product and how easy it is to not realize that what your bassoon is playing is essentially part of an arpeggio. VN wouldn't miss that, it would be able to snip out the part of the arpeggio your bassoon will play for you automatically and you get that much more realism out of doing things that way compared to just using a legato articulation. Of course the product may need to go through several different updates and revisions and improvements before it can get quite that good but I'm barely even scratching the surface of what's possible if your software knows what you will play next. Plus imagine how low-latency the playback can be if the samples can be pre-rendered before you ever even play them.

    Well, I'm done with my speech for today lol, but this is something that's been on my mind ever since I started getting into samples a few years ago, and we're missing out on so much potential quality due to the unavailability of something like this.
  • clruweC
    clruweC

    Well that's an interesting way of looking at it. Personally I prefer to have control over articulations e.g. sometimes the staccato sample is just wrong for the music, not to mention the speed of the trill. I much prefer the idea of a notation staff where you can open a CC controler staff and a keyswitch staff below it. I like to program things they way an individual performer would play... I'm not a big fan of automated events/keyswitches, they sound too robotic.

  • M
    M
    My apologies to you Clruwe... That was rude of me. If I may ask, what WOULD you do if you had that "million bucks"?
  • clruweC
    clruweC

    What? What are you talinkg about? You weren't rude at all...

    Million bucks? Well... Obviously finance the R&D for this dream software and I would definitely commission the IT team at VSL to do it!

    VSL products are the only ones in my windows machine that don't crash all the time, the updates are actually meaningful and they reward (not punish you) for being a loyal/longtime customer.

    Aaaah (sigh!), how wonderful it is to dream...
  • C
    C
    Well I had imagined the piano roll to be editable in terms of timing and dynamics and modwheel. But of course there will be times when you'd prefer to play things in yourself. I'm that type of person myself. Well good luck on the road to a million, and if you ever do fund R&D for something like this you'll be my hero!
  • C
    C
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    last edited

    @Errikos said:

    @civilization 3: Are you comparing yourself and the gazillion other droves of beat-mongers to Stravinsky?!?!?!

    In short, had VSL (and similar companies) never existed, you would still be able to realize your music through computers. A lot of us wouldn't be.

    "Beat monger" is a strawman you have devised to make someone appear foolish. You've used it a couple of times on me, in place of saying anything intelligent and in this thread to obviate any comprehension of what I actually wrote.

    I was realizing my music for decades before there was the personal computer. I went in my life from 'concert performer' to 'free improviser' (in the meantime I spent some time in the 'electronic music lab') which are both activities where a person functions in real time. If you were unable to use a computer to realize music at all prior to VSL products, that is a sad case indeed. It puts a cart before a horse it does.

    There is nowhere I particularly put myself up as Stravinsky, but you have argued in these pages by the most bullying fashion for some quite reactionary ideas. Reacting against technology (unless it's VSL). For an audience of today, Le Sacre has the weight of history behind it. In 1913 it was seriously radical. It's hard to feature you fighting on behalf of new ideas in music. You need people using drums and distortion to be 'popheads', now 'beat mongers', you do. I find from you a precious and insulated idea of things out of this kind of overheated cyberaggression: "Don't start talking again about things you don't understand - stick to computers and studio matters which you seem to know." I may know more about the studio or technology than you, but I was a musician for a long time to lead me to that. You need to make me look foolish to support your superior condescension; apparently it isn't just me noticing.

    One of the reasons Le Sacre was reacted against that vehemently was loud drums (that weren't merely decoration or accent: drums qua drums) in combination with time signatures that were new to these people. In combination with dancing to those rhythms and the perceived lasciviousness. "Whores of the 16th Arrondisement!!!" If you can prove that isn't so, you have a point against mine. I remain skeptical.

    As per your idea, it argues for a product geared towards, well, you...  a restricted user, hence a more narrow user base comprised of people that don't use effects?? Movie music people nowadays have to have a pretty good grip of 'the studio' and 'pop production' and things that you have an aversion to out of that insularity it appears. There isn't a market share of purist virtual symphony-only people to justify the R&D expense I don't reckon. I don't think it's 'one step' from what VSL does, based in my understanding of this virtual music world, which is wider than yours at least. You are asking for a product that does less it looks like.

    But ideas are good! I wouldn't hold my breath as far as this one, I would recommend obtaining a better grasp of the tools that are available, they work for people.
  • C
    C
    One reason why I don't think these ideas are quite as limited as you do is because I'm not looking at this concept as one that is limited to orchestral instruments, but one that has a very wide number of possible applications. If VSL does something like this, there will obviously be an orchestral slant, though, due to the fact that their libraries are, for the majority, orchestral. So I do see your point there. But all in all, yes the current system works just fine, but as long as we need the disclaimer "Well, nothing sampled will sound exactly like something played live..." there's room for improvement, which means innovation won't stop.
  • clruweC
    clruweC

    Well, to be frank I agree that the tools available now are in fact enough to do everything. I just find them slow. There was no actual need for a vienna ensemble and they've could've just worked with Kontakt, but both made life better and work easier. I get lost in piano-roll. I'm a musician, I'm used to reading music not colored bars in a grid... I've been working with DAWs for a year now and I don't think I'll get used to them ever, I still try to do the majority of the performace in Sibelius (basic dynamics, swing feel, keyswitches, etc.) and just do the touch up in Cubase. However, I love the latter for mixing! I find it intuitive and extremely fast. But for music performance I need a staff, otherwise I don't get it and loose the feel of it... So if I do become a millionaire and we develop this you are all getting a free copy!
  • C
    C
    I certainly need a staff for the writing process. I prefer pencil, eraser, and paper. Afterwords I play every line in via keyboard so any edits that need to be made are fairly easy via piano roll. Everyone's methods are different.
  • clruweC
    clruweC

    True! But there are many musical combinations that are so difficult on a keyboard it would require a virtuoso pianist to play them in. How do you overcome that?
  • C
    C
    I play each line separately. There's not a single line of music that I can imagine that would be too difficult to play while still sounding musical. By line I mean single voice, single note. Maybe if there are two flute parts I'll play them both in together, or if there are simple block chords or a simple four-part that's not too hard to play in I might do that too. Now if it's a piano, organ, or harpsichord track that's exceptionally complicated it may get a bit trickier--the tempo may need to be slowed down while recording then sped back up afterwords. I'm a decent enough player to be able to learn a very difficult but very short piece of music just long enough to get a good recording after a few takes, so often if it's a hard piano part the full line will be made up of a bunch of takes put together, two bars at a time or so. What kinds of lines do you need to play that are far too difficult?