@Eggsalad said:

I've also found the ff layers for most of the brass in SE1 aren't very good. Solutions I've used/considered:

* really working with automating the x-fade, without triggering the ff layer -- creating a good-sounding envelope for a loud note;
* mixing different patches and layers, again automating the x-fades -- maybe using the ff layer or staccato patch for just the attack;
* and of course, checking out one of the brass packages.

When working with DAWs and virtual instruments in general, it's easier to tame a harsh sound then it is to make a tame sound harsh.  If that makes any sense.

@Casiquire said:

"The legato performance is the same for the special edition and the DVD collection, they have 2 velocity layers..." Hang on, is that true? I have the SE also and was hoping to upgrade. I was interested in getting the performance trills and the glissandi, but I thought I'd be getting smoother dynamics as well.

Perhaps the most critical difference between SE (I also started there) and the full libraries, is the extended content in the full libraries.  The extended content includes all kinds of dynamics patches and those dynamics patches are a tremendous help in terms of creating dynamic realism.

OT sidenote: one of the things I wish the extended orchestra strings had was some fpf patches.

@noldar12 said:

Perhaps the most critical difference between SE (I also started there) and the full libraries, is the extended content in the full libraries.  The extended content includes all kinds of dynamics patches and those dynamics patches are a tremendous help in terms of creating dynamic realism.

@noldar12 said:

Perhaps the most critical difference between SE (I also started there) and the full libraries, is the extended content in the full libraries.  The extended content includes all kinds of dynamics patches and those dynamics patches are a tremendous help in terms of creating dynamic realism.

Which particular libraries are you thinking about? I find that Performance Legato and Performance trill are are instantly playable. In fact I can't think of another library that has Performance Trills. If you are talking about libraries that fake such things with scripting, then obviously there is less expertise required from you, but I have yet to hear one of these products where these tricks actually work.

FWIW you can set VSL up so that you don't have to change patch so much, if you know what you're doing, and are a good enough keyboard player to achieve it. Maybe give a few specifics of where things aren't working for you, and I might be able to give some advice.

DG

@Casiquire said:

That makes perfect sense and I guess I'm just spoiled in a very particular way by sample libraries that are different (not necessarily "better") than VSL. This means that I expect patches like Performance Trills and Legato to be instantly playable for almost all purposes without the need to switch articulations much, with a huge dynamic range. I'm not used to a sample library where the major strength is the large amount of articulations, even if that means greater realism. I just have to adjust my expectations a bit to really make full use of the advantages of these libraries.

There are no libraries that compete with VSL in terms of dynamic range.   But if one does not switch articulations one is doing simplistic music.  Drones and pads? -  sure, other libraries are great for that.  But in order to play realistic orchestral music you have to switch between many, many articulations.  Because you are emulating 60 - 80 players who are constantly doing that all on their own, each within their own instrument's parameters.  Multiply what you do in a performance exponentially, and you will arrive at an approximation of what goes on in an orchestral performance.  The only library which can even approach this kind of complexity is VSL.  

Nevertheless, the performance trills are completely straightforward - all you do is play them.  There is no switching involved.  Also, legato is similarly used.  You can just play on the keyboard and get an instant realistic line for any given instrument.   This is so true with legato instruments of VSL that I've developed an approach with custom patches to start first with legato, and everything else secondary.  Because the legato patches give you both legato and sustain automatically, and even give a slight emphasis on the repetition of a note in an otherwise legato line.  So with crossfade velocity, you can do everything in one pass for a large amount of many musical lines, then clarify the details with short notes, tremolo, etc. 

The elegant interface of Vienna Ensemble simplifies this tremendously, compared with other libraries that are stuck with either Kontakt or Play or their own player, most of which are horrendously clumsy compared to VE for orchestral use.   It is exceedingly diffcult to analyze exactly what is needed to access a complex array of orchestral samples in a logical, intuitive, simple way.  And VSL has spent the last ten years figuring out how to do this with an amazing degree of success. 

@Casiquire said:

The only thing that isn't really working for me is having amazing patches such as the performance legato with only two dynamic layers, requiring me to use other patches for smoother dynamics. This isn't really a criticism of VSL, it's just something I am not yet used to.

It really depends on which patch whether or not more layers are necessary. For example, with the DVD Apppassionata Strings I never use the 4 layer patch, because the 2 layer sounds better to my ears. Just a quick thought; you are using Velocity xFade, aren't you?

DG

I see now it is the particular edition you are talking about that has fewer velocity layers - sorry.  I also tend to use the 4 velocity layer instruments in the full versions because they are smoother for crossfading, etc.