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  4. still unclear about how to use portamento articulations

  • still unclear about how to use portamento articulations

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    Say I wanted to do a two note slur, usually in the strings, and get a fairly subtle, not-too-loud result. I find the only thing that seems to work is to put the keyswitch for the portamento at the end of the note to begin the slide. But it apparently needs to last through the second note. In which case there is no matching attack on the second note which is usually too soft.

    I'm aware that you can edit the loudness of the portamento though I don't understand completely how to set it up in the keyswitch area of the patch. I especially don't understand the #2 area since the options are not available the way I have it. (I assume you have to set up the AB switch.) I'm also ignorant about the crossfades if that's what it takes. In which case I'd ask how you set up these crossfades in the midi file or piano roll window of Logic 9.

    Though I've made a lot of progress in the VSL samples, I still have a long way to go.
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    But if a string player is playing portamento there wouldn't be an attack on the second note. I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve. If you're trying to get the most natural sound then you don't want an attack on the second note, you just want the sound of the first note sliding to the second in one fluid bow movement. I'm confused by what you mean when you say "there is no matching attack on the second note".
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    @Archie said:

    But if a string player is playing portamento there wouldn't be an attack on the second note. I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve. If you're trying to get the most natural sound then you don't want an attack on the second note, you just want the sound of the first note sliding to the second in one fluid bow movement. I'm confused by what you mean when you say "there is no matching attack on the second note".

    I'm not sure that is quite accurate. I'm not a violinist but I do think at the top of the slide, you can either increase the bow pressure or change bow. I'm not saying the attack needs to be loud but I certainly want to hear the note you are sliding into pretty clearly, else you are "sliding into oblivion".

    One way of dealing with this problem, I suppose, would be to reduce the volume or expression controller level on the slide and increase it when you want the upper note to be heard.
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     Edward, if you change bow direction at the top of the slide, that is not a true portamento.  As a strings (bass) player, I can remember my teacher commenting (more than once) that a slide when shifting positions, prior to a bow direction change was a sign of sloppy technique.  One "can" increase bow pressure upon reaching the 2nd note, but that does not seem "normal" to me either.  The closest to what you are describing, with the attack on the 2nd note would be a type of portato, though that normally refers to a type of pulse when playing repeated notes (i.e. no shifting) on the same bowstroke.
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    @noldar12 said:

     Edward, if you change bow direction at the top of the slide, that is not a true portamento.  As a strings (bass) player, I can remember my teacher commenting (more than once) that a slide when shifting positions, prior to a bow direction change was a sign of sloppy technique.  One "can" increase bow pressure upon reaching the 2nd note, but that does not seem "normal" to me either.  The closest to what you are describing, with the attack on the 2nd note would be a type of portato, though that normally refers to a type of pulse when playing repeated notes (i.e. no shifting) on the same bowstroke.

     

    That's not true for all String instruments. The majority of the time Violinists (not Bass players) use a Russian underslide, it coincides with a bow change. You are correct that with a French overslide (which is the default for changing position) a bow change can disguise the slide, providing that the position change is not between positions miles away from each other.

    DG
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    All right. Then the question is, should the portamento articulation be used at all for a slide? As I've said all along, pitch bend is easy enough to set up and may work much better in these cases. For example:



    mostly at 3:30.)

    Certainly, at this time of that recording, the slide in string playing was very prominent and, in fact, I did create MIDI files of the
    Elgar Violin Concerto some years back in which I at least put slides into the violin part, mostly, using MIDI pitch bend. Though I haven't yet edited this into completely into VSL, it works okay using the pitchbend options pretty much unchanged.

    @noldar12 said:

     Edward, if you change bow direction at the top of the slide, that is not a true portamento.  As a strings (bass) player, I can remember my teacher commenting (more than once) that a slide when shifting positions, prior to a bow direction change was a sign of sloppy technique.  One "can" increase bow pressure upon reaching the 2nd note, but that does not seem "normal" to me either.  The closest to what you are describing, with the attack on the 2nd note would be a type of portato, though that normally refers to a type of pulse when playing repeated notes (i.e. no shifting) on the same bowstroke.

     

    That's not true for all String instruments. The majority of the time Violinists (not Bass players) use a Russian underslide, it coincides with a bow change. You are correct that with a French overslide (which is the default for changing position) a bow change can disguise the slide, providing that the position change is not between positions miles away from each other.

    DG
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    The Portamento patches are fine for certain things, but pitch bend is not really a substitute for anything. It will sound pretty dreadful, IMO. There are limitations with sample libraries that just have to be accepted, I'm afraid. One of them is that French overslide doesn't exist, and the other one is that Portamento hasn't been recorded with a bow change at the top.

    Having said that, your example is just a simple slurred portamento, so that's easy.

    DG
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    DG, a couple (mostly) humorous comments: I also have at times played just enough cello to be very dangerous, as cello physical technique and muscle movement patterns are very similar to bass (assuming one plays bass using a French bow).  I also was taught basic violin, and what I do/did to a fiddle was... well...

    Lets just say that I tend to crush and strangle the life out of a violin as the physical requirements for bass and for violin are about as opposite as it gets.  Also, having to keep the little finger of the right hand on top of the stick instead of curling around it... all rather funny in its own way, and I am sure you can picture it.
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    @noldar12 said:

    DG, a couple (mostly) humorous comments: I also have at times played just enough cello to be very dangerous, as cello physical technique and muscle movement patterns are very similar to bass (assuming one plays bass using a French bow).  I also was taught basic violin, and what I do/did to a fiddle was... well...

    Lets just say that I tend to crush and strangle the life out of a violin as the physical requirements for bass and for violin are about as opposite as it gets.  Also, having to keep the little finger of the right hand on top of the stick instead of curling around it... all rather funny in its own way, and I am sure you can picture it.

     

     I wouldn't feel too bad about it. I have been accused of strangling the life out of a Violin many a time...!

    DG
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    DG,

    I added a file which uses, first pitch bend, and then VSL portamenti on the repeat. (I think I got the tune from the Dvorak Symphonic Variations.) Maybe the way I have it set up, the first slide seems to me better with pb and the second with portamento. I did modify the portamenti with the expression controller. But I don't think the pitchbends sound "dreadful".

    I also have to say, that the problem of the inaudible second notes don't seem to exist here in the portamento examples:

    http://www.egoldmidincd.com/strings.mp3
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     The reason you like the first slide better is that it kind of mimics a position change (which VSL never recorded). In a way, the slide introduced during a change of position is false, because it's there for a technical reason, not a musical one. The other slide is a musical one, so the fakeness of the pitch bend is more obvious. Is there a Zigane articulation in this VSL patch? That would be better than either version for the big slide.

    TBH the pitch bend doesn't sound good to me, I'm afraid. In order to make the first one work better it should be much more subtle. Note that in 1930/40s recordings this sort of slide was very pronounced, so if you're writing music from this period, what you did would be about right. However, form the 50s onwards this sort of playing became very out of fashion, and anyone attempting to play like that these days would be laughed off the stage!

    DG
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    Slides can be done more or less subtly in pitch bend by doing it faster or slower and also by changing the range. I meant these slides to be not too subtle so they could be heard in the example.

    String slides have gone through cycles. Even in Elgar's two recorded versions of Cockaigne, I think, the later recording has far less pronounced slides. (the first also has the optional organ part as well but not the second.)

    In Sarah Chang's more recent recording of Sarasate's Carmen Fantasy she is often sliding into harmonics and she does these effectively but fairly quicky. Midori does some pretty slow slides, up and down, in the same piece but the  others are also mostly fast.

    Also, as a rejoinder, the older generation of string players made a virtue of these position changes so much so that I expect them.
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    DG is correct as always,  but also no one mentioned the use of sul patches, which will give you a slide less pronounced than portamento, but more obvious than straight legato.  Sometimes it will sound darker because it tends to be a lower string than the corresponding straight legato  (in order to effect an actual slide on one bow) but can still be used. 

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    @William said:

    DG is correct as always,  but also no one mentioned the use of sul patches, which will give you a slide less pronounced than portamento, but more obvious than straight legato.  Sometimes it will sound darker because it tends to be a lower string than the corresponding straight legato  (in order to effect an actual slide on one bow) but can still be used. 

    My rudimentary viola technique never allowed me to explore the slides or the sul ponticellos (which I suppose is more of a bowing technique) as I probably never got out of first or second position much. I can eventually give this a try though when I have the time.

    In answer to DG as well, I don't recall seeing any tzigane violins in what I purchased.
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    Edward, the "sul" William is talking about stands for "sul G" etc., i.e. on the same string, not ponticello.
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    OK. Don't have that.

    @noldar12 said:

    Edward, the "sul" William is talking about stands for "sul G" etc., i.e. on the same string, not ponticello.