"I Can Do It My Way"

I lke that Mats. So many times one hears classical music, (lets say pre WWI for arguments sake) done over and over again, sounding the same. What is the point of that as an expression? Who cares in the end what the composer really wanted it to sound like, providing no notes are changed and adhering vaguely to appropriate light and shade dynamic markings etc?

As Vaughan Williams once said - 'Once my pieces are written, they have to make their own way out in the big wide world' - or words to that effect.

One of the things I never understand with samples and classical music done with them, is the constant efforts made by people to make it sound like a recording of the same work in a live situation. What is the point of that? 

Many people will never be able to work with a live, professional orchestra. If it's their own composition, they can make sound anyway they want and it either stands up or it doesn't. If it's a performance of a classic work, then the same goes with whatever interpretation is put on it, providing it sounds good.

Peace be with you, guys!

The more I read, the more I get the impression that you are talking about different things.

Mats, I think it is not entirely clear in what way you want to be different (and in what way you don't).

A "traditional" interpretation of the piece would be faithfully sticking to each written note. By that, one wants to re-create what Grieg initially intended, even if every recording will sound different.

As you changed notes and articulations and even added parts that were not composed by Grieg, you may want to create some kind of re-invention or re-arrangement of Grieg's Work. Therefore you mentioned people like Vanessa Mae who also don't take Grieg's sheet music literally. Today there is no reason to criticize this approach.

But does it forcibly have to be boring to play a musical work in the way the composer has intended?

This reminds me of the different approaches when e.g. producing/staging an opera. Does the scene have to look like at Mozart's time, or do we have to translate it into the world of today? You won't find an answer that is valid for everyone.

What I still didn't completely understand is: Do you want your version to sound like it could have been played by real human musicians, or is this realism not part of what you wanted to achieve?

One could also use synthetic sounds or create a "collage" with snippets of recordings...
But the moment you choose an orchestral library to emulate the string ensemble intended by Grieg, you will automatically be compared to live recordings of "human" orchestras. And I agree with those who said they'd easily hear that your version was created by programming.

There are many types of listeners in this world. To judge if a production sounds realistic, everyone will rely on different criteria, different details of what we hear. Everyone has his own perception, nobody hears the entire reality.
(Does a child resemble his mother or his father? Ask ten people and you'll get ten completely different opinions.)
Even musicians with trained ears will hear real instruments, because this is what libraries are made of. But someone who is used to work with these libraries will hear with different ears than someone else. As you pointed out yourself: It depends on the listener's experience.

Regards,

Klaus

... and thanks to VSL for this forum! How many places on earth are provided just for the discussion of musical questions like this?

Klaus

... we could also look at it as the legal form of the (nowadays so popular) Mashups. :-)

@PaulR said:

One of the things I never understand with samples and classical music done with them, is the constant efforts made by people to make it sound like a recording of the same work in a live situation. What is the point of that? 

Thanks for the comment PaulR, I couldent agree more.
With this wonderful tool VSL it’s possible to do so much more, be creative, personal, bold, challenging………..
To me this sound alike, copying thing, have its purpose as an exercise, if for example you’re not familiar with classical music and don’t play an orchestra instrument yourself. t

To me it seems that this is what many peple do here and I think that fine, we all nead to practice [:)]But when you get a grasp of it I definitely think you should make something personal and “new” with it.

And to those that don’t understand what is new in my interpretation, that’s okay with me. I have no illusion that everyone will hear what I have done. Its al about listener expertise, personal preference, knowledge of music (styles) and performance tradition (to name a few things), and of course VSL skills.....  

matsc

I see now why you couldn't put the whole thing or large sections on because of the CD release.  Anyway, what I heard made me want to hear it all ! 

I don't agree with the negative comments, and from what I could hear found it very well performed and the mix sounded fantastic.  Especially the changes from solo to larger ensemble.  Also, what you mention about the music being the focus instead of the technology - that is the whole point of doing any of this!  I also like this because it is an artistic use of VSL instead of merely viewing it as a cheap substitute for a live orchestra, which is what many users assume it is.  The basic idea of orchestral sound controlled by one person is tremendously inspiring. Thoroughout all the history of music the continuing desire to increase the expressive power and musical range of one person has resulted in various instruments such as the piano in all its development, the pipe organ, and now the artistically refined sample library which VSL has developed. 

Hello to all here

Dear Mats

First of all: I am so sorry that I obviously triggered such a noise around the new Grieg here.

This wasn't the aim, sure!

I understand that you Mats - who did a great, hard and interesting job with new ideas, with a new approach and who further produced 4 videos for showing us the result even better - must be disappointed when after all these efforts the second feedback comes with (also) a negative content.

I admit that I do not listen with "neutral ears" to music which is produced with samples after all the years using samples as well.

This must be the reason, that I really was distracted by the playing technique so that the new interpretation got a second place.

So this was a honest feedback with no more intention, believe me. If you want to believe that I don't like your interpretation I leave it to you.

Now, without the intention to declare war on anybody here I've decided to explain with the mentioned example why I wrote the story about the "bad mix" and the "unhappy translation"

I take the very first part of the new Holberg (from Mats mp4)

The following things distracted me from the new interpretation:

06 - 14 seconds >> Melody: the long sustained notes sound without any feeling in my ears (new interpretation? unhappy translation?)

04 - 14 seconds >> Rhythm: "ta tata ta tata ta" sounds so close that one can make out unnatural "wha-wahs" of the hited strings...Rhythm closer than the melody? Why? (Mix)

24 - 26 seconds >> Trill: Does it stutter? In any case: Something went wrong or something covers it.

At 29 seconds >> The first Final Chord:

Nothing against the Chord itself, but the following notes start before the chord sound has finished.

This isn't possible because the musicians have to change the bow from the E- string (D probably played 3. Lage 4th finger) to the G-String (H probably played with the 2nd finger 1. Lage).

Even if you don't take the "String-finger-Lage-story" as an important one the real musician would make a short pause at that point - new interpretation or not...

So this was about the first 30 seconds of the "New Grieg" and my listening-experiences.

You may see all these things the other way round. Then it's OK as well.

But these matters lead me to say the things about mix and translation.

Accept it or not: I am one of your listeners; I was invited to listen to the Grieg. Unfortunately (from the view of today) I wrote a personal honest feedback.

Once more NOTHING against YOUR NEW INTERPRETATION !!!

Now, this is my third and last feedback about this theme.

I have nothing more to say than peace on earth, take it easy and go on with new interpretations.

If you can accept just a little bit my mentions above I would be delighted to help you for even better translations in the future...

and that's what I wanted to be - already in this case: A Help, dear Mats.

All the best

Beat

PS: You are right, my English isn't that good - it would be probably better by using Google's translation program [;)]

I don't really agree with that critique Beat.  You seem to be listening in a basically hostile way to pick it apart, trying to find each detail that you can ennumerate as wrong, but if you just start listening fresh, getting the whole impression of the music, you immediately hear a great deal of energy and expressive articulation that sounds very good in purely musical terms.   I simply did not react the way you are so fixated upon.  For example - you castigate the dryness of the fast accompaniment - and yet that is precisely what adds to the energy of this very energetic music.   If one compares this to the usual bad MIDI, with the common crudities encountered, it is so far above that, it is in another dimension.  So your open hostility toward this music  I find somewhat strange. 

Of course because of this fragmented presentation mixed with lecture it is difficult to evaluate because never can you sit down and just hear the whole thing straight through, which I always need to do.   

Thanks Beat for your post, and William and PaulR for the support

Much more articulated, Beat, and interesting to read.

The comments Bert have are fully valid if you think it’s important which, as you may guess, I don’t think it is, not to me. Some are about taste and some are about instrumental playability. When they are as constructive as this time I can understand them.
To me this is not a “war”, to me it’s an interesting discussion.

I think the comment from Beat is a very important knowledge:

“I admit that I do not listen with "neutral ears" to music which is produced with samples after all the years using samples as well.”

It’s what I wrote about being a (VSL) “nerd”, something that I could call myself. It can severely limits your musically and artistically. We listen to how it’s done more than what is done. And I do think this is something we all have to be constantly aware of.

Music first!

In my youth I did play cello and double base and I have a fair knowledge of how to play these instruments but I don’t put much attention on the instruments limits when working with VSL, I find it much more interesting to explore the possibilities.

I don’t compare myself in any way with Nancarrow but I think he can serve as an example. Hi wrote for the mechanic piano making music that was said to be impossible to play…..and then came a guy Yvar Mikashof and played it and other followed him. Expanding the expressiveness of the piano.
Technology has always changed art, and if there is an artform that desperately needs changes, its traditional classical music, that’s so encapsulated in its own beliefs and standards.

Most parts of my version of the prelude will be hard for real musicians to play, but to me it sounds really god and to me it’s musically interesting, which I think are two important things in music. When writing for living musicians I would put all attention to if was possible to play, when it comes to VSL, I don’t even think about it, why should I?

In my reference group one person sad my version could probably be played by (and then naming the most brilliant Norwegian violinist), but I’m not sure that this will be practicaly (financially) possible, as it would require a lot of ensemble practice time. Just listen to the accompaniment it’s very “detailed”. I don’t think, as a couple of guys have written, it’s about the tempo in the prelude. There are several versions recorded that is faster than mine.

I really appreciate Beat:s honest offer to help and I fully respect Beat:s ideas, but as I said musically and how we work with VSL, I think we are on opposite sides (I’m repeating myself again….). And I think that’s great; there are so many different sides to music…..

all the best

matsc

PS sorry about the italics, wasent possible to change that........................

Hi Mats

Thanks a lot for your kind words!

Kind Regards

Beat

@yguddal said:

[...] PS sorry about the italics, wasent possible to change that........................

I changed it back for you.

Avilable on:

http://www.lawostore.no/cd/mats-claesson-interprets-holberg-suite-mats-claesson-3847

And on iTunes and  Spotify 

Videos about the project:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49KgWo9eojg

Mr Claesson,

I want to thank you for your work.  You've inspired me to undertake some similar experimentation.  

1.  As you imply, it's really not possible to achieve the kind of music experience provided by a trained ensemble of professional performers with hundreds of years of combined experience, playing in venues which are acoustical masterpieces, recorded by highly paid engineering experts with incredibly expensive microphones and recording equipment.  Why do I continue pounding my head against this brick wall?

2. Even if I could achieve the kind of technical mastery needed to duplicate the experience provided by a professional ensemble in a fine venue... so what?  What have I added to the musical millieu of the world by doing this?  There are many fine recordings available, as you say, that provide this experience, all for the low price of less than a buck.  What's the point of my adding to this, other than the self-satisfaction of doing it?  At the very bottom measure, what's the intellectual legitimacy of replication of classical ensembles by utilization of technology?

You can record a piece and slavishly try to achieve similitude to some ideal version, but "how do you make it your own?" (to paraphrase Duke Ellington).  What you've done is taken Grieg's composition, the raw notes, the rhythmic and tonal concepts, and made it truly and uniquely your own.

Classical music has always had a love/hate relationship with technology.  Bach's work was advanced by embracing a new technology, the piano-forte.  Grainger wrote his "Immovable Do" when his harmonium stuck with the C key depressed, so he used that C drone as the foil of the composition against which the rest of the piece develops.  Why not explore the technology available to push the envelope regarding performance of familiar pieces?

You've provided me some insight to approaching a set of pieces that I'm currently planning for release.  Now I'll continue working not only on technical issues, which are always important, but I'll start to really consider how I can make these pieces "my own."

In other words, how do I own them?

Thanks again for your work and keep it coming!

Michael Myers

Tensivity.com

never mind - I'll avoid commenting on the previous statement.  That CD is great - congratulations. 

Even if I could achieve the kind of technical mastery needed to duplicate the experience provided by a professional ensemble in a fine venue... so what?  What have I added to the musical millieu of the world by doing this?

I would say that the contribution to the 'musical milieu of the world' was made by the composer iso of the interpreter. Many composers go to great length to see their musical thought conveyed and many conductors try to get to the bottom of this. (You can witness this process today when you visit a rehearsal with composer present). Because most composers before WW do not communicate that well, you have this tradition combined with research thing.

So to answer your question: If achieved, your addition would be to keep the (often significant) musical contribution alive. The means by which this is achieved is secondary.

Kind regards,

Martijn 

@MWE said:

Even if I could achieve the kind of technical mastery needed to duplicate the experience provided by a professional ensemble in a fine venue... so what?  What have I added to the musical millieu of the world by doing this?

Well yes I somewhat agree with that, but what about someone who uses samples to perform a piece of music simply for the joy of doing it? Is that worthless?  that adds something. 

Are only GREAT PERFORMANCES BY MASTERS the sole criterion of musical expression? 

Everyone today seems to think that only the greatest performance by the greatest orchestra in the world is the standard.  That is hopelessly out of touch with reality.  Reality is normal orchestras, struggling to play in tune,  let alone play perfectly at every second - the only defintion of musical value that seems to be accepted now.  Probably because of recordings - everyone can listen to a recording done by incredible virtuosos of the greatest music of all time, any time he wishes to.  But to assume that is normal music is completely wrong.  Though maybe you despise normal music.  

So this is why I appreciate people who create a straightforward musical interpretation of a piece with MIDI just for the fun of it, and think it is perfectly valid to do. They are doing something normal in music - a performance of a piece that realizes certain qualities of the composition and is thus fulfilling as an expression of the performer - whether or not it is adding to the sum total of great musical utterances recorded on the stone tablets of the musical eons.   Whatever that may be.  Ludwig Spohr thought he had written on those and is now totally forgotten.  Whereas most blues men who thought they were nothing special as they recorded a 78 rpm of their vocals with guitar are now the greatest sources of musical inspiration of the last century. 

William, that is one of most inspired posts I've read for quite some time - if only everyone could put away their "puffy chests" for a while and see things this way. Music is a human endeavour at all levels. I have sat listening to the most amateurish live music at times and watched the faces of so many in the audience who were thoroughly enjoying it. Who loses? Me, not them.

I'm curious why you focused on Pre WWI music?

Sorry to get off topic - anyway, it is a great project.