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Hi
A new way of playing Edward Grieg’s Holberg suite?
Here is a link to the video documentation of a project I just have completed.
http://matsc.net./the%20grieg%20vsl%20project.html
There are 4 videos on the page, total duration 44 minutes.
It will also be released on the
www.lawo.no classical music label
Mats Claesson
The Norwegian Academy of Music
mats@nmh.no
(the forum member registration is on our studio manager, but I also get any comments)
Dear Mr. Claesson,
although I find your attempt quite courageous and - in some way - "innovative" (?), I reckon all this (what I've listened to) sounds rather synthetic and unreal...
Concerning new "tempi", I know a certain Carlos Kleiber who was an extraordinary innovator concerning interpretation of Beethoven's music, a certain Gould concerning Bach's and so on...
Unfortunately, I didn't have the time to watch all the videos, but I'm quite curious, after many "palaver", about the final result, ergo to listen to your very own version.
("What version is this?" "It was my version"...quite easily spottable, I'm afraid...).
Sorry for my abruptness. I'll be an attentive listener of your definitive version.
Thank you.
@yguddal said:
Hi
A new way of playing Edward Grieg’s Holberg suite?
Here is a link to the video documentation of a project I just have completed.
http://matsc.net./the%20grieg%20vsl%20project.htmlMats Claesson
The Norwegian Academy of Music
mats@nmh.no
Hi Mats
Congratulations for your great effort and the Grieg-Project.
I was the one who did Grieg's "Holbergsuite, Prelude" for demonstrating how close we can go to the original with samples (2003 and a second time 2006).
Original Demo for VSL: http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/VSL_New_VI/BK_Grieg_Holberg_Praelude_VI_06m.mp3
and also: http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/VSL_New_VI/BK_Grieg_Holberg_Sarabande_VI_06m.mp3
So I was very keen to listen to your new interpretation...
If you want my honest opinion your interpretation led twice to a new version:
1. By your new interpretation
2. By A unhappy translation into the world of VSL (it's probably the mix)
Sorry for beeing so straight. But I was very distract from your interpretation because of the "unhappy mix".
Your new interpretation was unfortunately of secondary importance because the sound was so far away from the original.
I believe that now a lot of listeners think (as I do) your new interpretation is bad but it's not the interpretation it's the mix.
So, my opinion is: If you want to compare two music stiles (interpretations) you shoud try to get the sound as close as possible.
Maybe I can help to improve it. What do you think?
Are you happy with the sound of your Orchestra? Am I wrong?
Beat
Hi everybody,
first of all, I would like to say I love to see new classical projects in this forum. I listen to all of them very carefully, and I find it extremely useful as I am learning to use these libraries, something that gives me much pleasure. So, I certainly welcome this new Grieg Project, Mats, and would like to encourage further work in that direction.
Now, that said, I'm afraid I am in that group of listeners mentioned by Beat who find it difficult even to speak about "interpretation" due to the poor "execution". I think we all are in the same boat here: all our efforts with sample performances are focused on mastering the programming part, i.e. "execution", so that we are able to say what we want to say musically, i.e. "interpretation". My point of view is that the whole process is not really different to what we do with "real" instruments at all. You have an idea - you practice - you compare you inner and outer hearing experiences - you keep doing that until there's as little distance between them as possible... or you have enough! (^_^)
I was also going to point to Beat's rendering of the Prelude (one of my favourite VSL demos, btw.) as a suggestion for you to study, Mats. I've seen he can be quite straight at times in this forum [:P] but, as you can see here, he's always willing to give advice and help and, as finished as you can consider your Grieg-Project, I wouldn't take his words lightly.
Maybe I can help to improve it. What do you think?
So, Mats, I wouldn't really think twice... [;)]
Best Regards.
Hi and thanks for the comments, always appreciated
My answer may be a little harsh, sorry for that, but please bear with me, I have the best of intentions and that is to clarify what my project and approach is, and maybe give you guys an un traditional view off what sampling could be….;-)
Your posts arecertainly of great value to me.
I m also sorry for repeating myself……..
And this an way to long answer, but I had fun writing it, it clarified some things for me.
I think you all have missed the whole point with this project by far. As I clearly say in the introduction video, it's NOT about competing with the real thing which, I honestly think, it’s (close to) impossible and for me personally, a waste of time. I'm simply not interested in the idea off striving for performance authenticity (and to some extent, sound). I'm not interested in the copy! Who is? Not artists, as far as I know.
Getting the sound is "right" is of importance and to be honest I think Kaufman:s mixes are, in a way, authentic and “right”, but very un-engaging, or to put it bluntly, boring. My mixes is done with a popular music approach and technique, very subjective, and don’t even try to be authentic. It may be that this is hard for you to comprehend (like) because it’s, ….unconventional?
I’m not
interested in sound-alikes and performance copying. Version like Kaufman:s
Grieg preludium has never been an inspiration to me. It’s impressive in a way but
not musically engaging. It’s a reproduction a copy and, as far as I understand
from Kaufmans reply to my post, it was never intended to be anything else as he
say "for demonstrating how close we can go to the original with samples
". Mission completed! Can’t argue with that.
I whont comment much on his version of the saraband other than if he wants it
to sound natural, using portamento is not the way to go, There isent a single
interpretation I know of that uses prortament to the same extent as Kaufmans.
To my tast it sound very unnatural and not very musical at all.
Kaufmans version of the two movements is also limited in expressiveness by his choise of reverb. Going for a "warmer” room in this conservative type of interpretation would have been much better, His conservative use of eq sounds really nice (is there any) My mix relies heavily on Pultec/Massive-Passive and flux Alchemy plug in processing ;-)
I think Kaufmans version of the Grieg suit show the huge difference between approaches as it is a brilliant example of what I'm NOT doing. Kaufman:s version is traditional, free of anything that sounds like a personal approach to the music, but achieves what he strives for "a demonstration how.........".
I wouldn’t dream of criticizing Kaufmans version on any other merits than what he self states "for demonstrating how close we can go to the original with samples”, and then he is doing pretty god (except for the, in my taste, horrible choice of reverb…….).
My version is about doing something else, something interesting and NEW. Make an artistic statement. As I said in the introduction video, something that challenges, in a positive way, real artists and make super expert performers stop and question what they are doing them self.
My reference group consisted of world leading violinists (4). One of them has
directed one of my favorite recording of the suite, a conductor and a classical
music record producer. I wouldn’t be so sure of myself if I haddent gotten an
unanimous (could almost say overwhelming) positive response. These guys heard
absolutely everything I had done, down to the smallest details, and they were
not interested in authenticity. In fact I had problems convincing 3 of them
that it was programmed, I had to show them the Cubase and VSL files, but then
they where super experts and excellent artists ;-) Some said it was a contemporary
way of interpretation an other sad it went from super delicate to completely outrageous
(after the first listening his firs comment was “This is how music should be
played” J )
If one gets to “nerdy” one may lose the artistic perspective, very frightening indeed. It’s like when you start using After Effects you lose a bit of the “wow effect”, when watching movies, because you know how it was made. It’s dangerous to let that take over because you lose some of the perspective towards your audience and the music.
That’s why I sometimes have a bit of a difficulty with comments like Kaufman.s, They come from the “nerd” side (I’m also on that side). I have much more confident in my reference group off real living super experts, artists. Sorry that how I feel. We "nerds" are used to spot sampling. We are over sensitive about it and that may limit our artistic judgment. This could be the case with Kaufman, his interpretation is more to the correct traditional side of interpretation, and to my taste not very convincing in the artistic department.
Having said
that I have gotten some critique about not having the whole versions online to
make comparison easier, and it should have been, sorry about that.
If you don't like what I have done, it that fine for me, but don't criticize it
for something doesn't set out to be.
If you ask me
(I know you haven't) you could ask yourself, do I really want to make just
copies?
Because that what you saying you are doing:
Servandus:
"you keep doing that until there's as little distance between them as
possible"
This is probably the worst approached ever if you want to make art. To copy without adding anything extra……..
Kaufman:
"for demonstrating how close we can go to the original with samples
".
As I said (I
know I’m repeating myself) this is not interesting to me and I would like to go
further doing something that hasn’t been, heard or done.
That’s something completely different than doing a sample demonstration…….
VSL can do sound-alike’s, copies, we know that, its old knowledge lets go
further!!!
VSL is such a beautiful tool it’s a shame to limit to doing sound-alike’s!
My suggestion is, make something new, personal and artistic or at least try,
in everything you do....:-) !!!!!
But if its copying you like please go on, its up to you.
And to answer
Kaufman:s last question
"Am I wrong?"
Well you completely misunderstood the content of my videos and the project that
I have worked on, but I would say, your question is wrong - What is right?
Servandus scholarly post I don’t know how to answer, are you a student of Kaufman?
If you came this far, thank you very much for reading, and please excuse my sometimes blunt and to the point language. I’m taking about art and approaches to making art and then its easy to be overly engaged, sorry about that.
I which you all happy music making with the fantastic tool we have, VSL!
Hi Mats
I assume you didn't understand my post...
So even harsher as well:
A) Congratulation: Super idea to make a new interpretation (of Grieg's Holberg Suite). Nothing against it!!!
B) Unfortunately bad played or/and mixed - not as an Orchestra sounds (my opinion).
So...
The idea of A) suffers because of B)
That's all
Beat
Dear mr Claesen.
Your quote: "you keep doing that until there's as little distance between them as possible"
and by your conclusion: "This is probably the worst approached ever if you want to make art. To copy without adding anything extra…….."
Is taken from:
"My point of view is that the whole process is not really different to what we do with "real" instruments at all. You have an idea - you practice - you compare your inner and outer hearing experiences - you keep doing that until there's as little distance between them as possible... or you have enough!"
I am not into polemics, but I do think you need to quote more accurately to strengthen your argument.
After 44 minute of video... plus a rather long commentary, I am now honestly curious about the final., and new interpretation of the Holberg suite, see.
Regards,
Martijn
Hi Mats
I assume you didn't understand my post...
So even harsher as well:
A) Congratulation: Super idea to make a new interpretation (of Grieg's Holberg Suite). Nothing against it!!!
B) Unfortunately bad played or/and mixed - not as an Orchestra sounds (my opinion).
So...
The idea of A) suffers because of B)
That's all
Beat
Thanks Beat
You’re absolutely right; i didn’t fully understand your post, now I do.
You simply don’t like my version. That perfectly fine with me.
I think we may have completely different view, approach and interest when it comes to using the VSL program.
I fully respect your version even if I think it’s not musically interesting.
Keep up the good work
All the best
mats
Hi Mats,
I'm sorry, but you completely misunderstood me. It may be my fault, since I'm Spanish and sometimes find it difficult to speak in English. But I really don't know how to put it clearer.
In fact I had problems convincing 3 of them that it was programmed, I had to show them the Cubase and VSL files, but then they where super experts and excellent artists 😉
well, please, forgive me, but you don't give them actually much credibility, even if you trust them blindly. I also can't grasp why you say you're not interested in sounding, if not real, at least "sonically convincing", and at the same time keep making those affirmations. It seems quite incoherent to me and makes difficult for me to understand your claims. Also, you should not be surprised by Beat's point of view and suggestions, when we read all the time in your videos questions like "What version is this? A traditional with live musicians or mine?". Please, believe me, in the present state of your version it's ridiculously evident, and that's what we have kindly tried to tell you so far. Maybe Miki and Beat aren't either "real artists" or "super experts"... but, the only thing I still could tell you is, again, I wouldn't take their words lightly.
Anyway, if you're satisfied with what you've achieved with your project... well, at least you're satisfied!! Honestly, that would be enough for me, so in that case, congratulations for your satisfaction... And please, excuse my comments if you really didn't want to know our opinion (sorry but I didn't realized you didn't ask for it in your first post) although you should understand this is likely to happen when you're posting in a public forum.
About being new, and original (sometimes even at the cost of everything else), well, that's another story I will never ever be able to understand, Mats. You already have unique fingerprints, you don't strive for that. It's a given, you are original, whether you like it or not, want it or not; no need to listen to 100 recordings to figure out what hasn't been done yet to come up with anything else. It's a very old tune I've already heard a thousand times, some people even going to the extreme of saying they didn't care about other interpretations; you should, or you couldn't even know there's something "new" or "original" in your version, because all this is nothing but just a comparative judgment. So, even if you want to sound "new", it's not inteligent to disrespect the "old", for without it you would not even know what "new" means. It's like when avant-garde composers disrespect the classical tradition pretending not to use any cliché... I couldn't imagine a more restrictive, stupid cliché than that!! So, similarly, I think when one tries to be systematically "original" (my definition of originality is quite different, but I understand what you mean), as you did in your Grieg, there's every possibillity that you end up with a caricature. And I give you it could be very provocative, that's good, but then we come again to the point: for me it's hard to hear even that supposedly provocative interpretation in what I could hear from your videos. I'm sorry.
In any case, as I told you, I welcome you to the forum and I assure you I am grateful for having the chance to listen to classical performances in this forum and will be glad to listen to your future projects.
Hi Mats
I assume you didn't understand my post...
So even harsher as well:
A) Congratulation: Super idea to make a new interpretation (of Grieg's Holberg Suite). Nothing against it!!!
B) Unfortunately bad played or/and mixed - not as an Orchestra sounds (my opinion).
So...
The idea of A) suffers because of B)
That's all
Beat
I don't understand this at all. The sections of this I heard sounded excellent. Beat, I suspect you are just pissed off. Understandably, since Mats said your MIDI performances are boring. I don't agree - I have always liked what you do. Anyway, this seems to be a bit distorted by the interactions here. One other thing - I could not find any simple straightforward performances of the entire piece, at any point. Just little blips of music in between lectures. So maybe that is affecting my reaction. Here, on this Forum, people need to post MUSIC. Then, you don't need to blabber on and on about how wonderful and brilliant you are. Just post the music and let IT do the talking.
If you wish to do an alternative new version of a piece and not interested in it sounding real, then the VSL library was perhaps the wrong sounds to use, because using such an authentic library, even with your interpretation is still about 90% authentic, and so still sounds nearly real, but not quite.
You seemed proud that some people couldn't tell that it was computer based and not a real orchestra, but I thought realism is what you were trying to avoid?
If you used totally synthetic sounds, then you would be creating something new, but by using VSL it can only be trying to sound real, and you have achieved nearly real but not quite, perhaps it should have been less authentic, seeing that you were not trying for an authentic sound.
I thought you had a great project, but I was a little disappointed that you didn't play any of it, and it all came from a midfile you downloaded off the internet - I reckon it would have been better if you hadn't mentioned that, because that statement for me, made you loose all credibility in what you were doing.
But well done for getting a commercial release on it.
Ok. Thanks: "people need to post MUSIC and let IT do the talking"! Given the signifcant amount of work/study (?) I, normally avoid to hijack a thread, but hey, selective quotation made this put me up here.
Here is it. Form matters. As I try (another great song)!
http://redmist.mycloudnas.com/public/elgar%20-serenade%20-%20larghetto.mp3
Feedback welcome elsewhere!
Cheers,
Martijn
@William said:
Here, on this Forum, people need to post MUSIC. Then, you don't need to blabber on and on about how wonderful and brilliant you are. Just post the music and let IT do the talking.
thanks for the comments, absolutely agree about the small "blips" of music, but it will be published by a record label and I’m not permitted to have whole versions on my site.
It will be on spotify soon and the recording can be bought from lawo.no
And yes I’m sorry about the blabber I couldn’t stop it……. Kaufman is all over this site and I really didn’t like his comments about bad playing and mixing and "unhappy translation into the world of VSL", maybe his German to English translator is doing a bad job….its just words....
mats
@andyjh said:
I reckon it would have been better if you hadn't mentioned that, because that statement for me, made you loose all credibility in what you were doing.
did you listen to what i said in the video? Absolutely every MIDI note is edited length, placement and velocity usually all of them.
and then its tempo VSL articulations, mixing............
Would it have been any better if i made a step input cubase file? Using a MIDI file saved me countless hours of unnecessary work.
Hard to get that you really mean that....
hi thanks for your long and interesting post servandus
It's a very old tune I've already heard a thousand times, some people even going to the extreme of saying they didn't care about other interpretations; you should, or you couldn't even know there's something "new" or "original" in your version, because all this is nothing but just a comparative judgment. So, even if you want to sound "new", it's not inteligent to disrespect the "old", for without it you would not even know what "new" means.
Make no mistakes about this.I am a musician (or at
lest used to be) with too many years spent studying music…….
The first time I played this piece myself, as a musicians, was 35 years ago.
I even transcribed the whole suite for other instruments, I have recorded it
several times, heard it in concerts numerous times.
And I started every programming period with doing the piece inside my head,
simply conducting it. I did my homework![:P]
"I Can Do It My Way"
I lke that Mats. So many times one hears classical music, (lets say pre WWI for arguments sake) done over and over again, sounding the same. What is the point of that as an expression? Who cares in the end what the composer really wanted it to sound like, providing no notes are changed and adhering vaguely to appropriate light and shade dynamic markings etc?
As Vaughan Williams once said - 'Once my pieces are written, they have to make their own way out in the big wide world' - or words to that effect.
One of the things I never understand with samples and classical music done with them, is the constant efforts made by people to make it sound like a recording of the same work in a live situation. What is the point of that?
Many people will never be able to work with a live, professional orchestra. If it's their own composition, they can make sound anyway they want and it either stands up or it doesn't. If it's a performance of a classic work, then the same goes with whatever interpretation is put on it, providing it sounds good.
