Paul, thanks for listening - you know it's funny, I took down the reverb and narrowed the stereo spread as I thought is sounded a bit artificially wide. The reverb I was using muddied it up a bit, though that is a combo of the particular reverb and the writing I think.

Maybe I'll put it back to my first version...

Anyway, thanks for using your "old grey" ears on it. (er, I mean in the sense of "the old grey whistle test" - not trying to insult you [:)])

@JohnA said:

Hello golden-eared learned mixers!

If anyone has the time and inclination I would be grateful for comments on this mix:

http://abram.ca/MPEGs/Cabal.mp3

It uses VSL 1st edition Orchestral Cube and Performance Set with the Wizoo Platinum 24 Piano and some sounds from the "kitchen drumkit"

Nice composition, but more space please! Sounds like it was recorded in my living room. Which reverb were you using? I usually recommend doing separate reverbs for all four sections. That way you have more control. Allow the sounds to blend a bit.

~Chris

Hello Chris, thanks for listening!

The reverb is Logic's Space Designer using "Five Columns Long" from the free Voxengo IRs.
The 4 sections send different percentages of their signal to the same reverb.
I haven' experimented with different reverbs on the different sections - do you have a recommendation of where to start?

I checked again some of my favourite recordings and they are indeed quite a bit more spread out than this mix. So I will redo this when I've experimented with different reverbs.

Thanks for your suggestions!

best,
John

Thanks to those who gave suggestions!

I've made some changes and posted the new mix at:

http://abram.ca/MPEGs/C.A.B.A.L.mp3

I still have not had the time to explore different reverbs for different orchestra sections, but will do that some time in the next weeks. If I think there's a huge difference I'll post another link.

best,
John

Cool composition, John - I quite like it...

mix-wise, still quite dry - which is not a bad thing, but if the instruments at the back have more wetness, then it can give a better 3D feel. Use your aux send/returns on the reverb bus and give more to the back desks.

you may want to apply a reverb with no tail to give the space, and once it's bounced down, add an overall room tail-verb. and then of course, use the mastering plugins to emphise the right freqs.

it's not the only way, but one that I use occasionally...

Peter

@JohnA said:

. If I think there's a huge difference I'll post another link.
best,
John

Don't worry John. I still like the compostition. [[:)]] You've widened it, haven't you? The opening is Herrmannesque and threatening, Agreed? It's driving forward, right? Why do you allow it to fall away at around 1' 18" then? Mix wise, I would like to suggest that you get the instruments that you wish to accent during the phrases and orchestration up to this point, much more to the fore. More 'in your face'.
From there, to about 1' 42" you either need to do something about the strings sound, or orchestrate the strings so they are much fuller. They're weak still, although better than before.
As a favour to me, make the gong sound at 2' 13" not louder, but deeper and more sustained. [:D]
At 2' 32" the vibes or mallets (?) should be mixed up right to the fore again. Nice phrasing and notation, SO LETS HEAR IT! [[:)]]
It's a pity for me that you can't get back to the Herrmann type string figures at the end of the piece. No worries.
This is a dark piece that I am really beginning to grow fond of. Make it darker, louder and Gothic. And more reverb where it counts. You've got Space Designer after all.

All the best

Paul

@Another User said:

Mix wise, I would like to suggest that you get the instruments that you wish to accent during the phrases and orchestration up to this point, much more to the fore. More 'in your face'.

This is interesting and I will definitely try these suggestions. My feeling with balance is that I shouldn't be trying to make the Orchestra sound "unnatural" - in the manner of the Mercury Living Presence recordings I guess, which are some of my favourite recordings - though I think that most (all?) newer recordings do play with balance of individual instruments to bring out voicings etc. so I should just get over it!

Regarding reverb I tend to like things drier than most - I do find that a lot of the pieces on the VSL site are too wet for me - but will try out Peter's suggestions as well.

I won't have time to play with this for a week or two, but will post another link then.

Thanks again, this is a valuable discussion for me.

best,
John

P.S.
re the meaning of cabal: I found this in an online dictionary:

"Note: It so happend, by a whimsical coincidence, that in 1671 the cabinet consisted of five persons, the initial letters of whose names made up the word cabal; Clifford, Arlington, Buckingham, Ashley, and Lauderdale. --Macaulay."

@JohnA said:

[
As to the composition, I think we have different expectations of what the piece (really a sketch) is doing. My general predilection is for music (& other art) not to behave quite as one would expect based on precedent, so I think all your points are well thought out and correct and would certainly make C.A.B.A.L. into a stronger darker gothic piece. But what I want from the piece is:........ but that's OK for me.

Appologies. I was trying to impose my will on you.


though I think that most (all?) newer recordings do play with balance of individual instruments to bring out voicings etc. so I should just get over it![quote JohnA]

We should all get over it. We should be doing as original sounding scoring as possible now we have these tools. We should get away from the norms and make different sounds and colours. Unless of course the client says 'this is what I want' , then you're stuck.

[quote]Regarding reverb I tend to like things drier than most - I do find that a lot of the pieces on the VSL site are too wet for me - but will try out Peter's suggestions as well.[quote JohnA]

The only thing in this world that should be dry, is humour! [:)]

[quote]"Note: It so happend, by a whimsical coincidence, that in 1671 the cabinet consisted of five persons, the initial letters of whose names made up the word cabal; Clifford, Arlington, Buckingham, Ashley, and Lauderdale. --Macaulay."

Hmmm. The same year that Sir Thomas Fairfax, leader of the New Model Army died.

@Another User said:

The only thing in this world that should be dry, is humour!

HA! Are you a string player? I've noticed that string players demand more reverb than anyone else...

@JohnA said:

HA! Are you a string player? I've noticed that string players demand more reverb than anyone else...

Merely a frustrated one. Seriously though John, don't let's get 'wetness' confused with 'space'. I have just taken delivery of the Logic Pro update, which includes Space Designer. Just waiting for the G5 2.5 to arrive in about 10 days and I will include Altiverb (the new updated version). Because strings seem to be one of the hardest sounds to get right through samples, good reverb tools and eq are probably essential. I don't have the legato tool either, yet.

Best

PR