Good to see this conversation starting to move!

PaulR. I work in Finale, so I simply set up my score (oh boy... yup, the "paper" one - virtual paper, actually!), with the instruments I'm interested in using, then get to work. On the Giga side, I create custom instruments with as many articulations as I can cram into memory -- that's the annoying part. I then write everything in full notation. I just think better that way. It helps me write more idiomatically for each instrument -- so I don't write keyboard-like lines for violin, for example. As far as the "sound" goes, now that you've got me thinking about it, I still auralize the orchestration, then score it -- just like some old school composer who doesn't even have a computer! That's kind of weird, I suppose. But that's just my training, and what I'm accustomed to. Actually, I really enjoy auralizing it before I "put it to paper". It makes the quality of VSL that much more rewarding!
To be quite honest, that's usually "it", since I seldom actually output my Giga versions. (I mostly compose concert music, at this point, so the VSL is only for me, and the "live" performance is booked well in advance.) However, I have done some music for contemporary dance using sample-based output as the final product. In that case I worked in Cubase, selecting sounds as I went, and playing them in -- no paper score at all!
But, for anything resembling a "real" orchestra, it's always paper first. So, for me, sample selection really just comes down to old-fashioned orchestration -- if it's Flute and Clarinet I hear, then I write something on the Fl and Cl staves. Simple!

DG. I'm really interested in your "graphic score". Is it literally that? A la Stockhausen? That's something I've long been interested in trying -- finding a sort of shorthand that I can use to capture the essence of an idea, without getting bogged down in details too quickly. My work is very detailed, so it tends to be a slow process writing it, which I'd like to speed up... Actually, that's not quite true. I'd like to find a way to get the sounds in my head "out" more quickly, without disturbing their original impression. After that, I quite enjoy detailed tinkering about, just to get things cleaned up.

mathis. Good to know. Composition and Orchestration I'm comfortable with, but the film world is still somewhat a closed book. I'm hoping to get involved in some film work, but I really want it to represent a continuation of my compositional style - not a "made to order" product - so I probably won't be drowning in contracts!

J.

@jbm said:

DG. I'm really interested in your "graphic score". Is it literally that? A la Stockhausen? That's something I've long been interested in trying -- finding a sort of shorthand that I can use to capture the essence of an idea, without getting bogged down in details too quickly. My work is very detailed, so it tends to be a slow process writing it, which I'd like to speed up... Actually, that's not quite true. I'd like to find a way to get the sounds in my head "out" more quickly, without disturbing their original impression. After that, I quite enjoy detailed tinkering about, just to get things cleaned up.
J.

My graphic score is nothing like S****hausen; it's just a way of reminding myself of the shape of things to come (now there's a score and a half). I use lines to denote volume (big sine waves) and the centre dictates the rough pitch. If I get an idea of some sort of rhythm, I use dots with spaces and accents to show phrasing.

As a lot of my work is to film, I often "sing", well utter percussive noises and record them while my master track is playing. This helps to give the direction of a cue before I forget what I'm doing by trying to sort out notes!

I hope that this is not just a load of nonsense and that it makes sense to someone other than me, but if not then I won't lose any sleep. [H]

DG

Sounds great! And yes, it makes perfect sense. I like the idea of singing/"utter"-ing ideas as the film rolls. In fact, I could really see that helping me formally, as it would prevent me from abondoning an idea too quickly - particularly one with an odd/angular, semi-random rhythmic development (which I like, BTW). Being originally trained as a drummer, these sorts of things can just fall off my tongue, but it's painfully slow scoring them out.
A while ago I was actually working on a compositional tool in Max/MSP that would follow certain types of gestures, and give a kind of rough playback of an idea. The problem, for me, was that my language is so closely linked to the way I "see" music -- on paper -- that it's hard to find a way of capturing that part of it in a meaningful way. My musical imagination seems to be provoked by seeing the phrase written out, in full. I once tried to do something like what you're describing with the gestural score, but I lost my nerve and started writing it out full -- like I was 'testing' it, or something -- thus losing any advantage the gestural score might have given me!

Maybe I should try it again sometime!

J.

This is a good topic J., and I agree with what you said. Notation is somehow the only musical reality, especially for an old codger like me. All MIDI is just fluff. And not only notation on a computer, but printed out, and preferably on parchment. Yellowed, with tattered edges.

LOL!

Yup! I actually used to score in full, on that lovely scoring paper -- you know, with all those beautiful, empty staves, just dying to be filled -- then enter it all in a Yamaha QX-1, IN STEP TIME (which was the most arcane process imaginable), then listen back to it on my old Roland U-110... But, alas, the computer got me... and, to be honest, it's sucked a phenomenal amount of my compositional time and energy away from me ever since! It certainly has its GREAT advantages, but holy crap, what I time trap!

But then, at long last, my prayers were answered, and the VSL was born...

Now... we just need a musically intuitive, score-based sequencer! It WILL happend, one day. I know it. I mean, it's really a no-brainer: if you want to replicate the orchestra, you have to use the language that orchestra players understand -- SCORE! A program that really _understands_ score, would make all this trouble about midi channels, ports, articulations, and all completely irrelevant!

BTW, William, do you work in Finale or Sibelius (or neither)?
If so, I'm working on a program in Max/MSP that will make using VSL _much_ more satisfying, and will also allow you to make use of _all_ the articulations, without worring about RAM (though early tests are showing that CPU may be a bit of an issue... also, it's Mac only, for now). Send me a direct message for more info.

J.

ps - I was wondering when you'd stumble into this topic! I enjoyed our discussion a few months ago, and I'd hoped to find some way of picking it up again. I've been seriously lost in this programming business (I'm also battling a commission deadline), so I've been off the forums for a while. Cheers!

[[:)]] Hi everybody.
I am a brand new member here. What a nice topic... and btw, PaulR, you asked a very very interesting question "When you sit at your computer and write music, do you do it by sound, or by constantly referring to the score page on Logic? Or a bit of both?". Talking about the definition of "score", I perfectly agree with the fact that nowadays they refer to the music itself, not the printed sheet, though I must say when I hear the word "score" the first thing that comes up in my mind is the printed sheet and not the actual music, but probably is because of my education, I am originally italian and (studied at the Milan Music Conservatory). Now I live in LA and I have experienced this different definition of "score" in the film music industry...

In regard to PaulR's question, when I compose I can either play or directly think of the notes and write them in the page on Logic. It depends on the inspiration. Usually when I begin to write a new piece I play because I need to follow inspiration by touching the instrument directly, it almost seems that the instrument guides me to play certain keys/strings. I am mainly a harpist and keyboardist, and sometimes it's the harp that suggests something, sometimes it's the piano. Other times, instead, I prefer to sing (especially when I don't have instruments around) so I can memorize the melody or harmony I am going to develop. Also, when I travel, and I am inspired, I am used to turn my lapton on and work on a midi file just like when you need to write down something fast in a notebook to avoid loosing an important information. Though this is just for what I call, the "initial inspiration". After writing a short piece of the main melody to get the ideas, I definitely need to work on staves through Logic. I depend on that and I need to see staves, arrangements, and the whole harmony. I can manage all tracks and edit notes one by one like in a chess board. I would not be able to end the work otherwise. Then, after I arrange the harmony and create all the tracks, I can possibly play some parts with the keyboard to add specific colour and expression but then I need to edit everything by working on Logic....

[[:)]] Swanyce

just a question... talking about inspiration, I usually am inspired by night (sometimes I feel like I have a "bat" life!! [8-)] ). What about you? Do you write better in the day or in the night?

[:)] Swanyce

@Swanyce said:

just a question... talking about inspiration, I usually am inspired by night (sometimes I feel like I have a "bat" life!! [8-)] ). What about you? Do you write better in the day or in the night?

[:)] Swanyce

I am "inspired" by a deadline [:D]

DG

JBM,

I have Finale though don't really use it with VSL. I agree that music itself should be the language used when "writing" midi - not computerese. Very interesting about your program. There is definitely room for more things like that.

To DG:

I perfectly agree with you. In fact, when I take a commitment I make sure I get enough time to work on it, for inspiration is not at your command and music is not just a math scheme to make money. I think every composer has a very high communication task towards the masses. And music should transmit a message in a universal way. But that's just my point of view...

[:D] Swanyce

@Swanyce said:

just a question... talking about inspiration, I usually am inspired by night (sometimes I feel like I have a "bat" life!! [8-)] ). What about you? Do you write better in the day or in the night? [[:)]] Swanyce

Yes, well, thats a good point and a good question. Nitty gritty! [[:)]]

Night time has always been the best time for me, although if you have deadlines, then it becomes a moot point. However, you can create night time during the day, if this suits you. If I have to write something that involves pictures/images, I will spend quite a long time just looking at the screen, almost to the point of becoming trance-like. Then, I will probably have a drink. Then, I will probably have a kip. When I wake up, somehow I feel that my mind has absorped what I've been looking at, and if I'm lucky, things take shape on the keyboard (in my case) in a sort of automatic way. Too much thought and analysis needs to be controlled in my view. It can get in the way. My first port of call is 'sound' not 'notes'. After all, we're supposed to be artists. Slightly crazily, I have this romantic idea that sounds/samples are like a painters tubes of oils. Too many paint colours, and the picture becomes muddy. Same with sound.

Working at night is usually best for most musicians I would guess. It may have something to do with one's mental wave patterns at that time of the day. Dusk on a nice day is always calming. 'Sounds' always seem to sound better at night. Again, I don't really know why, and I have no wish to really analyze why to be honest.

On the other hand, it could just be because of the alchohol and drugs! [:D] [*-)] [[:|]]

Just kidding!

All the best


PR

Yes me too, I know what it means the trance-like phase. I spend even 16 hours straight before the computers with two separate screens and my equipment (sometimes I don't sleep at all and I mainly eat before the screen or while doing something) . I totally loose the sense of time, not even mentioning the rest. Everyday you must reach a result and goal with the tracks otherwirse you can't finish in time. Then when I complete the piece I have to arrange and print the music (I use Finale for that) for the orchestra in case we need a live recording with musicians (apart from the fact that I need the printed score to register the music with SIAE for the copyright).
Maybe my approach to music is linked to the night because I also write songs and sing, and probably this may have a certain influence on my way of composing. [:D]

Swanyce

@Swanyce said:

In fact, when I take a commitment I make sure I get enough time to work on it, for inspiration is not at your command and music is not just a math scheme to make money. [:D] Swanyce

It would be nice if I could give myself a proper amount of time to write, but unfortunately I'd starve [:'(] Also, I must admit that if I took a week to write something, it would probably not be any better than if I wrote it in a few hours [:D]

DG

I used to be most creative in the morning, best early morning. However it seems that it´s currently changing, but I don´t know in which direction yet...

to DG,

[:)] I think sometimes, due to the financial situation, especially at the beginning of the carreer, people commit to projects they don't "feel" and this may generate a lack of inspiration. In this case, it doesn't matter whether they write a piece in a few hours or in a few weeks, it's just not "inspired" [:(] . It would be the result of a "going for schemes". Do you like the Fine Arts and paintings? Take the "Adoration" by Masaccio for example... beautiful colors, shapes, shadows, perfect proportions in his characters... then take a look at the faces he portrayed... cold and distant as winter's weather... there is no "soul" in that painting even though it was meant to express a very warm and moving scene. That happened because it was not probably felt when painted [:'(] . Critics think Masaccio used perfect art schemes in his painting based on math proportions, but he could not hide that "lack".

I personally think I am lucky [:D] because my situation allows me to devote my self entirely to projects I deeply feel. And it gives me time to finish my works properly. I know so many people, like some frustrated teachers at Music Academies or Conservatories who, being compelled to teach to earn a living, "trasmit" their hate to students [:@] (future musicians/composers) just like a disease, making them run away from music [:'(] [:'(] . Music is a calling and I can't conceive it exclusively and purposly for the sake of my wallet. The day I can't write music with creativity, inspiration and full passion, I will quit and change job. Who knows, perhaps I could make it a good interprete or web designer. [:D] [8-)] [*-)]:

Hi Mathis!
You got a cool site!! Really nice [:D] [[;)]]

Swanyce

"Music is a calling and I can't conceive it exclusively and purposly for the sake of my wallet. The day I can't write music with creativity, inspiration and full passion, I will quit and change job."

That is a great statement! I agree completely. The worst music I ever wrote was for crappy tv commercials that were meaningless. The best was for projects or just music I believed completely in whether "commercial" or not.

Fred Story has made some very insightful comments on this topic elsewhere on this forum - juggling the difficulties of making money with making music. But I've decided that the music I believe in will either make money or not, but if it doesn't, that's just too bad. I won't change one note or one element of any project for commercial reasons, ever. You must create the best art that you possibly can every second you have the strength to do so. And never compromise even for a moment. You will succeed far more in the long run with that approach.

@William said:

But I've decided that the music I believe in will either make money or not, but if it doesn't, that's just too bad. I won't change one note or one element of any project for commercial reasons, ever. You must create the best art that you possibly can every second you have the strength to do so. And never compromise even for a moment. You will succeed far more in the long run with that approach.

I'm sure you're correct in what you say; I don't like to change things that I think are the best that I can do, but leaving aside unmusical directors/producers, there are times when listening to the opinions of others can be useful. The snag is knowing who to listen to [:)] Most of us have at one time or another have been criticised, only to realise in retrospect that we were right all along. I must admit that I have never considered the music I write as art, merely an enjoyable way to make a living, however I have nothing but admiration for people who are able to function as composers without deadlines or constraints; I can't.

Hi William [:D]
Wonderful post, really awesome!! [[;)]]
I am glad someone shares my ideas about music.... and we are not alone : I thought I could share some very nice music quotes I have collected around from people we have heard of (famous writers, composers, painters, etc...):

"Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent"
Victor Hugo

"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy, it is the wine of a new procreation, and I am Bacchus who presses out this glorious wine for men and makes them drunk with the spirit."
Ludwig V. Beethoven

"Music isn't just learning notes and playing them, You learn notes to play to the music of your soul".
Kathy Greenwood

"Music is well said to be the speech of angels; in fact, nothing among the utterances allowed to man is felt to be so divine. It brings us near to the infinite".
Thomas Carlyle

"Music is your own experience, thought and wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn".
Charlie Parker

"...Yes, (music) must come from above, that which strikes the heart; otherwise it's nothing but notes, body without spirit, isn't that so? What is body without spirit?"
Ludwig V. Beethoven

"Music is the movement of sound to reach the soul for the education of its virtue."
Plato

"We live in this world to compel ourselves industriously to enlighten one another by means of reasoning and to apply ourselves always to carrying forward the sciences and the arts".
Mozart

"I think music in itself is healing. It's an explosive expression of humanity. It's something we are all touched by. No matter what culture we're from".
Billy Joel

"Life is like music, it must be composed by ear, feeling and instinct, not by rule."
Samuel Butler

(I like every quote here but Beethoven is definitely my favourite!!) [H]

And this are my personal quotes, thoughts and opinions from my "inspirations page"[:O]ops: [:O]ops:
"In music as everything in art, Inspiration is Revelation and can be described as a woman of incredible power and beauty. She comes and visits you suddenly, during the night or in the day... and when she knocks at your door you have to be awaken, ready to follow her to the place she wants to take you".

"When I start writing a piece I never know what the final result will be,
I don't have any precise scheme it just comes out freely.
It is an "adventure in the soul's land" towards another amazing dimension.
Yet only when the piece is finished I realize its message and I find out
how universal is , without limits of space and time.
I believe a song/composition is never exclusively of the artist that wrote it
for it is directed to everybody... so it is like a baby
whichi is not property of the parents but belongs to the world".

Swanyce [:)]

William,

Thanks for the kind words...though I'm not sure I would call my comments particularly insightful. I scratch my head and reach for perspective every day...as I'm sure all of us do.

There's a part of me that envies those on this forum - and elsewhere - who are in a situation in which they NEVER have to change a note. No overhead...no employees...no financial responsibilities as a factor when deciding which work to accept, or dictating when and how you compose. Daily, I deal with the frustration of clients giving direction with little or no real understanding of music, or the process by which we create it. Is it a compromise? Sure. But like everything, there's a flip side.

When I put my shingle out as a full-time composer 14 years ago (after 8 years of doing it freelance around my broadcasting day gig), I never dreamed that today we would have three composers (myself included), a full time sound designer and support staff...not to mention a mortgage on a piece of commercial real estate. On one hand that means payroll to meet, health insurance to pay, and constant pressure to generate a certain amount of revenue each month. On the other hand, it means I get to work with some incredibly creative, talented folks who keep me sharp...keep me inspired every day. Our collective creative energy is greater than my own, and I learn from them as I hope they learn from me. In that regard, the time I have to spend as a "businessman" is well worth it. It's a means to an end. And though it takes time that I could be using to compose...I think I'm a better composer for it.

This next thought is probably the one that will generate the most discussion, but what the heck...

As for clients making me change my music? That's not necessarily ALWAYS a bad thing. My feeling is, a good idea is a good idea. I've come this conclusion: Who am I to think my idea is always the best one? I view most of the projects we work on as collaborative efforts, and getting finely attuned to the sensibilities of the person calling the shots can often take me in musical directions I would have NEVER have thought to venture into on my own. As a result I learn. I stretch. I grow.

I think of those times when clients have requested what I thought were ridiculous changes. Sometimes a funny thing happens. When I make the change, then TRULY listen objectively, occasionally the end result is better. When a client bends their ideas based on MY input as well, that's true collaboration. And in the context of specific fields of work, that's not an artistic compromise...that's the way it SHOULD be. And I think I'm a better composer for it.

Are there situations in which I refuse to compromise? Yep. The need to sharpen my own musical voice has led me to begin a solo project, during which I will neither solicit or entertain feedback of any kind. I do it PURELY as an artistic and creative endeavor. When it's done it's done, and I don't really care whether anyone likes it or not.

So for me, I feel like I get the best of both worlds. And if I might add...

I'll be using some cool stuff on my solo project that I NEVER could have afforded without the revenue from my little company.
[[;)]]

Fred Story