What is that backup solution that French law allows for? Do you have a backup that in case you lose your key you can re-install your licences on a new key as if nothing happened?

I don't think that VSL does enough to make their policies obvious. I don't know if it is intentional or not. If it is, then that is a problem. However, there is enough information about this on the web that one should be performing a bit of research before spending thousands of dollars here. 

With that said, I do not agree with the lost key policies, but I also do not believe that people should be given freedom from responsibility. If your key was stolen, and there was a police report, that is one thing. If you lost it, it isn't VSL's fault. *You* lost it. 

I think a fair policy would be:

1. First time the key is lost, you pay for a new key, the cost of generating a new license (I'm assuming that Steinberg charges VSL per key generated), and reasonable "idiot" fee for having lost it. This fee should never exceed 25% of the original cost, at most. 

2. After that, you get one more shot. You pay for everything again, in full. Anything beyond a second time, no more VSL for you. 

The French law allows, but if VSL does not allow, they will be condamned by the French gov

@Cyril said:

The French law allows, but if VSL does not allow, they will be condamned by the French gov

Condamned Cyril !!!!!!  

And ex communicated too!!

@Cyril said:

The French law allows, but if VSL does not allow, they will be condamned by the French gov

Condamned Cyril !!!!!!  

And ex communicated too!!

LOL

@delavagus said:

I have been engaged in a long and fruitless discussion with VSL concerning their policies regarding USB Licensing Keys, specifically their policies concerned with the loss of said keys

What VSL fails to mention is that the center of gavity for this whole policy is really Steinberg who owns the e-licenser control center - the software that ran the download of the original license. From Steinberg's website,

"Since January 2005, Steinberg is a wholly owned subsidiary of Yamaha Corporation, the world's leading manufacturer of audio hardware"[6]

Hi VSL

Did you talk to you lawyer ?

Do you have an update on this ?

Do I have to get a juridical insurance ?

Best

Cyril

Vienna super package is never going travelling again..

@JSAntares said:

Vienna super package is never going travelling again..

if you have an unwanted visitor you are .....

@JSAntares said:

Vienna super package is never going travelling again..

if you have an unwanted visitor you are .....

 ... claiming on the insurance that any intelligent person would have taken out. [;)]

DG

I don't care what solution (if any) will be acceptable to the company in the end. I can tell you what is not going to be acceptable to me: I will not log-in every 2 months to keep a hardware that I've paid for working, and the day VSL allows for any piracy (by allowing copying, whatever), I will be buying their products exclusively in the black market thereon. I keep telling you that VSL is not just insuring themselves against theft, but our investment in their products at the same time!

@Errikos said:

I can tell you what is not going to be acceptable to me: I will not log-in every 2 months to keep a hardware that I've paid for working,

this is ridiculous !

you connect your PC/MAC to do software update

If the checking is done in background there is no inconveignence

@Errikos said:

 I will not log-in every 2 months to keep a hardware that I've paid for working,

So, worst case scenario!

Your license stick gets lost doesn´t matter how, but its gone so you have to buy all your license for the half-price again.
I think you´re a bigger player here in using the staff VSL offers so roundabout 5000,-€ up.
I don´t know if you can pay this out of your petty cash, but I think most users here including me don´t have that money in stock and would be pleased to use it in a different way if they have

And fate is sometimes unfair. What if, it happends again to you a short time later?!
Sure doubtful but not impossible.
That´s all because you´re to lazy to let the hardware check it in a period of time!?

I for myself bought a laptop this spring, a fast/expensive one for using it outside with VSL.
But I´ve stopped it, because of the really bad feeling I have, if I good this little tiny stick with me. How fast can it be lost in any way.
So, one big point for using VSL is gone.

I, for myself would like to buy more staff from VSL, quality is without no doubt, but I´m really thinking about to stop buying anymore, because of the risk that gets bigger with any product I buy more.

regards

Torsten

@Errikos said:

I keep telling you that VSL is not just insuring themselves against theft, but our investment in their products at the same time!

First, you're right in that I have spent quite a bit of money here. Don't you think I know that something could happen to my licences one day? Do you really think it is due to laziness that I'm against logging-in periodically to verify my stick? No. It is the principle of the thing. Since I have paid outright for the use of my software and hardware, I refuse to have my legitimacy confirmed every 2-3 months unless I'm upgrading. Don't you see where this could lead in the future? It could get to the point where you'd have to be permanently online, and connected to a company at all times in order for you to be allowed to work with software (licences too) and hardware that you have purchased outright. Don't think for a minute that if you agree to the Principle of an idea, it cannot be extended to its entelechy; read Aristotle.

Regarding your second post, it is your thought-process that is ridiculous if you can't see that the money you have spent here is well invested if-and-only-if nobody else can use the same products as you, unless he also has undergone the same expenditure to acquire them.

@Errikos said:

I can tell you what is not going to be acceptable to me: I will not log-in every 2 months to keep a hardware that I've paid for working,

this is ridiculous !

you connect your PC/MAC to do software update

If the checking is done in background there is no inconveignence

Then let it check me if and when I connect to do software update.

@Errikos said:

Then let it check me if and when I connect to do software update.

I'm not sure why it couldn't do exactly that, or at least something very similarly unobtrusive. It could be, for example, something like this:

- VSL requires online verification of the legitimacy of registered licenses every 2 months or so.The verification itself takes 30 seconds and an internet connection.

- When 2 months have gone by without online verification, a user is prompted with a message to verify the licenses sometime within the next week. It doesn't have to immediate, so you'll never be caught off-guard with an impending deadline while in the desert without an internet connection. If you're in the desert for longer than a week, you have more serious concerns than composing music.

- If a week goes by without online verification, the licenses are suspended until proper verification is received. Once verified, the licenses are restored.

- A user can perform the online verification at any time, thus extending the validity period for 2 months from that time. Therefore, if a user knows in advance that they don't want to be bothered for the next month, all they have to do is log in and validate their licenses, and they're good for the next 2 months.

While I admit I haven't given this much thought, I'm not sure that the above system would be a serious inconvenience. In my view, it would be a very small price to pay to relieve users of the burden and expense of having to insure their licenses. Moreover, it would effectively give VSL the ability to disable licenses on a stolen or lost dongle (after 2 months). Sure, a thief may get to use the licenses for free for 2 months, but under the present system, unless I am mistaken, a thief is able to use the licenses on a stolen dongle indefinitely.

I don't think the slippery slope argument applies here - there just isn't a logical pathway between what I'm advocating here (security of VSL's and our investments at minimal risk, expense, and inconvenience to both parties) and a situation where users need to be constantly logged in to a server in order to use the software. In any case, that situation certainly isn't what I'm for; I'm advocating something like what I stated above, no more and no less.

I don't think any the ideas of the previous posters are "ridiciulous" (except, perhaps, the very title of this thread - for all its flaws, I don't think there's anything unethical about VSL's policy here). I agree wholeheartedly that the current system is designed to protect VSL's products as well as our investments in them. I also think that the current system is less than perfect, with a disproportionate burden on the user. While it would also be, admittedly, less than ideal to have to verify one's licenses online every now and then, it seems to me to be less of an inconvenience than having to pay to insure the licenses.

I appreciate Errikos' proposal.

- I don't think VSL is currently behaving in an unethical way. Before purchasing my licenses, I was informed through the website that loss of the dongle = loss of the licenses on it = having to purchase the software again. And I can transfer my licenses from one dongle to another (I transferred everything from my Vienna key to my Steinberg Cubase key)

- I think VSL's offer to pay only 50% of the original price in case of loss or theft is quite correct (cfr. the Steinway piano analogy above).

- If there is proof of destruction of the dongle (for example: the house burns, with official attestion; the dongle physically breaks, and you send the pieces back to VSL), than I would propose VSL to consider granting new licenses for the price of the replaced hardware + reasonable handling expenses - VSL must be paid for their efforts

In the meantime: yes, I did take an insurance for my licenses (as part of the insurance of all my electronic equipment and all my software), and informed my insurance company that the value of the dongle is equal to the cost of the software licenses on it. For your info: I pay about 0.5% insurance premium, so it's not really a big issue.

And yes: if someone is stupid enough to loose his key, or unlucky enough to get robbed, that's a pity; but that's not a reason to expect that VSL, or Steinberg, or any other company, will bear the burden of it. Take your own responsibility, and do take an insurance.

So, mr. Delavagus, although I understand your frustration, I cannot join your opinion. 

And as far as I am concerned, the people of VSL I met already in the past years are really fine and honest people, and "demanding ransom" or behaving unethically is not what they are doing. But they do protect their business interests (and ours: do we want their products become twice as expensive, because they loose income from massive piracy? I guess no)

Kind greetings,

Robrecht H. Paternoster

@Popslaw said:

I'm not sure why it couldn't do exactly that, or at least something very similarly unobtrusive. It could be, for example, something like this:

- VSL requires online verification of the legitimacy of registered licenses every 2 months or so.The verification itself takes 30 seconds and an internet connection.

- When 2 months have gone by without online verification, a user is prompted with a message to verify the licenses sometime within the next week. It doesn't have to immediate, so you'll never be caught off-guard with an impending deadline while in the desert without an internet connection. If you're in the desert for longer than a week, you have more serious concerns than composing music.

- If a week goes by without online verification, the licenses are suspended until proper verification is received. Once verified, the licenses are restored.

- A user can perform the online verification at any time, thus extending the validity period for 2 months from that time. Therefore, if a user knows in advance that they don't want to be bothered for the next month, all they have to do is log in and validate their licenses, and they're good for the next 2 months.

Hello VSL

THIS IS THE SOLUTION

Another one will be a finger print reader, it's 34 $ !!! I am ready to buy one just to have peace !

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?client=safari&rls=en&q=fingerprint+reader&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=3387544997990879383&sa=X&ei=xajkToHNIJC2hAeB2qG3Dg&ved=0CHAQ8wIwAg#ps-sellers