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  • that's a bit mean donethur.

    all this does make you wonder though. is this whole debate just a generational thing? a paradigm shift? like when reggae replaced rock in Africa in the 70s (I knew a very angry Nigerian who was put out of work by reggae, seriously). When Elvis replaced Bing Crosby. The Beatles replaced Elvis. Like when Einstein (Zimmer), replaced Newton (Herrmann). Ho ho, just my little joke.


    I remember reading one of Plato's books (might have been the Republic) where an old guy was complaining about the younger degenerates who didn't remember the old ways and didn't have the respect they did. This was written in 380 BC, which kind of makes it look like generational shifts have always been there, rather than the possibility that we have indeed been degenerating consistently since the dawn of time.


  • sorry dagmarpiano, I couldnt avoid that, but I am always kidding in my normal life :) (well, I use to respond insults with jokes). In my real thought, I dont have nothing against old or new stuff. I am not old but not young, but I think the main thing is what I have reflected through the years... I now have a very clear picture about what is art for me, after study a lot of artistic manifestations and learn from great artist (painters, etc). Sometimes, people want to feel they are superior to others, so use music, art, science, dress, etc., to increase their self esteem (most of them belong to a social group like hip hopers, etc). When they surpass that step in their lifes, they realise that they become a bit "ubermensch", with their own convictions and own way of thinking, not influenced for the rest. That is why some artists after composing complex stuff, become to be interested in simple stuff, they finally understand that hidden taste that they never seen before. But this happens only when people becomes mature internally (not only age). I dont say that every person should listen folk or popular or simple music, i am not saying that all of them will end like that, other could start to listen more complex music, I just say that you notice something strange when the argument becomes insult, when you see signatures demostrating superiority, arrogancy, etc... you start to suspect that something is wrong here (sorry my English again, it is a nightmare to me to write thoughts in other language). About the generational thing, IMO you are correct, this is similar... I think the Zimmer`s fans will have the same discussions with the future musicĀ“s fans. Of course, technique would not be the argument, but maybe "sonority" "ideas" "expression" "too much noise" too much electronic sounds", etc...

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    @PaulR said:

    In fact - there's an American cat on Youtube that plays better than most of you people!

    I find that hard to believe. An American cat?

    All the best.


  • I wish Billy wouldn't do that. Being English I suffer from any kind of exposure and that causes a great deal of embarrassment. And besides, that was done years ago and I still have trouble making samples sound any good. I prefer photography. BUT - none of you younger imbeciles know what constitutes art or a good film or a good score. You HAVE to have a benchmark. You CANNOT have HZ as your benchmark and expect to LIVE!

    You cretins seem to be under the impression that just because you like something then it must be GOOD! Wow - that's a serious criteria.  I like it - so IT MUST BE GOOD!



    telling me you're a better player than this, then your'e a godamn liar!

    I would put off playing bubonic plague roulette this weekend to hear about the late 60's.!!! Especially from anyone born 3 hours ago. Yeah!

    Someone fetch Trevor!!!


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    @The Minstrel said:

    Anyways, the piece that William linked to was indeed very beautiful, and although I lack the knowledge and skills necessary to compose something like that myself, I can tell that you are quite skilled. 

    That's kind and also irrevlevant to this thread and unforgivable of William actually. But I could teach you to do that stuff in 10 minutes if you're a good player.


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    I would have just one thing to request

    @Donethur said:

    that is why I wont discuss about musical terms to talk about subjective concepts

    Please refer to this article which shows exactly how many composers have deliberately brought the audience to catharsis through definite use of skillful composing, in other words, they knew what made music interesting. http://www.brainmusic.org/MBB91%20Webpage/Sloboda_1991.pdf

    The article details the methods used especially appogiatura. The Zimmer piece was great, I am going to go fire up my Vienna Symphonic Libraray and have a go at it! I can hardly wait to see if I can do better!


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    @dagmarpiano said:

    The older stuff is better to listen to and has more artistic merit.

    Here's what John A Slobada found in his research-somewhat small sample-when asked by listeners to give specific examples of 'moving' or emotional, or 'makes shivers up my spine' in musical passages.

    1. Harmony descending cycle of fifths to tonic

    2. Melodic appogiaturas

    3. Melodic or hoarmonic sequence

    4. Enharmonic change

    5. Harmonic or melodic acceleration to cadence

    6 Delay of final cadence

    7. New or unprepared harmony

    8. Sudden or dynamic or textural change

    9. Repeated syncopation

    10. prominent event earlier than prepared for

    The whole article is here

    http://www.brainmusic.org/MBB91%20Webpage/Sloboda_1991.pdf


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    @Donethur said:

    emotion that his tracks contribute to films

    Other writers here have commented on your use of the word emotion and it is quite maddening to read your posts --not sure why I do but you seem to be dominating this thread-- when you keep using terms that are so very  vastly general so as to include half the universe of discourse-. Please[:@]

    I beg you

    be more specific than to just say emotion

    What emotion?

    Love? Hate? Anger? Joy? Sorrow? Excitement?

    There are about 50 synonyms for each of those words; can you find something specific? Help!

    Oops, just noticed you are not an English speaker originally, you should have said so from the get-go.

    Sigh[8-)]


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    @Errikos said:

    Dietz please don't lock this wonderful, stimulating thread yet, I just can't reply right now, I promise to do it tomorrow as early as I can...

    Man, your line of BS is so well-rehearsed many of us could phone it in for you. Do exercise your hobbyhorse ONE MORE TIME, though. [um]

    Somebody pop some corn.


  • [quote=dagmarpiano]all this does make you wonder though. is this whole debate just a generational thing? a paradigm shift? like when reggae replaced rock in Africa in the 70s (I knew a very angry Nigerian who was put out of work by reggae, seriously). When Elvis replaced Bing Crosby. The Beatles replaced Elvis. Like when Einstein (Zimmer), replaced Newton (Herrmann). Ho ho, just my little joke.

    So now Hans Zimmer has replaced all the "old" composers.  

    Well, dog-gone it, I thought Bernard Herrmann was pretty darn good.  But he's not current, so he can't be.  I see now.   With your reading of Plato you've cleared it all up.  Thanks.

    Hey, wait a minute!   What are we going to do with Mozart?  Or J.S. Bach?  Those guys are ANCIENT!   They must be TERRIBLE...  


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    @civilization 3 said:

    Man, your line of BS is so well-rehearsed many of us could phone it in for you. Do exercise your hobbyhorse ONE MORE TIME, though.

    You do know I was thinking of you Gianna when I was reading through Donethur's insular, defensive, and ultimately uninformed dismissals of my observations, don't you? 

    Give it up woman (and I mean all up, music, opining, etc.), you couldn't phone in a pizza, let alone my commentary...


  • @Donethur: Don't forget that you're the one that started with the insults when you found there were people here with a different opinion to yours, going on and on about immaturity and arrogance in others, etc. You say that you supposedly studied the masters and have "a very clear picture about what is art for [you]", but you seem unable to give us the first clue about what that picture is. The only thing you can do is throw a couple of tracks at us and, unlike the sophisticate you try to pass yourself as, but as a petulant and uneducated teenager instead, you insist that no matter what anyone says, your tracks are just great (why?) because they just are.... And anyone who says different is just mean, self-important, immature... When you use exclusively social-networks' phraseology to admire them, well that might cut mustard in SMSs to your friends or your blog, but it won't cut it here. And since you are so much more mature as a man and an artist than me at least, why don't you try to pull the glue from my eyes and ears by addressing some of my points from your superior (or just plain different) angle?

    But what should I expect from someone whose Confucian wisdom about music is summed up in: "I think the music is something to love, not to hate"... I mean what can one say to that? I feel embarassed not only for myself, but for all those generations of musicians as well: From Willaert, Zarlino, Palestrina, Rameau and their polemics, to Berlioz's and Schumann's, Wagner and Tchaikovsky vs. Brahms, Glazunov vs. Strauss, Stravinsky vs. Schoenberg, the futurists vs. everyone else, Lambert's and Adorno's manifesti, Boulez vs. Puccini... All this bad blood and no one there to tell them "I think the music is something to love, not to hate", and humiliate them into silence... Make them shake hands...

    But as civilization 3 - your equal in maturity, taste, and intellectual rigour - would say: All aforementioned were ignorant, untalented (yes, she has said that), and now dead white males, not a century too soon...


  • Paul Robbins could not have chosen a more appropriate track to try and wake you people up from your Zimmerian slumber. Appropriate how? Simple, it is one of the most powerful and memorable film-tracks - as well as serving the subject matter perfectly (unlike the music to Inception), AND it is built on ostinati, loud chords, and little voice-leading, like Donethur's offerings. He wanted to show you that even with limited materials a great composer will compose great music. He wanted to show you the kind of music that superlatives like 'very expressive', 'very emotional', and 'powerful' should be reserved for. Instead of throwing our ideas herein as to how the two composers are different in the same "form" and maybe discovering something useful, people (kids) just persist "no no no no no no no no, Hans is just divine and you are just wrong and entitled to your opinion"...

    It is not the generational gap - as William pointed out in his way, great music will always be great - and it isn't that I only listen to string quartets. I grew up like almost everyone else, having great favourites in the pop-music of my time, as well as all time favourites. Believe me, people here would be shocked to know some of my preferences and what I consider great pop-writing (I am using 'pop' as an umbrella term of course for anything from The Monkeys to Garth Brooks, Cat Stevens to Burzum, Hendrix to Bieber - I'm not saying these are my preferences). However, I know in my mind where everything sits, and although personal preference is paramount, there are some things that we must agree upon if we are to have any meaningful discussion, such as "Mozart is a better composer than Lady Kaka" or "Ennio is a better melodist than Hans" for examples.


  • I wonder why Hans Bleeding Zimmer looms so large in all these discussions. Maybe because he's had more success and influence than many think he deserves? And that makes him a prime example of everything you hate about the state of affairs?

    I feel like I'm getting lumped in as a Zimmerian. I don't even particularly like his music. I mean, I thought he was effective in Inception for certain reasons to do with some of the chords and sound combinations, but it wasn't high art.  I mean, for example certain guitars sound great but it doesn't make them great artists.

    For what it's worth, my favourite film scores are things like Morricone's Cinema Paradiso and a few John Williams films. And, James Horner's Krull which he did in his 20s was very good I thought.


  •  Worse!

    Just listen what shit I have to compose in order to earn my wife's household allowances:

    "Der Euro am Abgrund" (2010)

    http://www.videoportal.sf.tv/video?id=cd2a506a-6e39-4700-b98f-d4c894175d83


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    @dagmarpiano said:

    I wonder why Hans Bleeding Zimmer looms so large in all these discussions. Maybe because he's had more success and influence than many think he deserves? And that makes him a prime example of everything you hate about the state of affairs?

    I feel like I'm getting lumped in as a Zimmerian. I don't even particularly like his music. I mean, I thought he was effective in Inception for certain reasons to do with some of the chords and sound combinations, but it wasn't high art.  I mean, for example certain guitars sound great but it doesn't make them great artists.

    For what it's worth, my favourite film scores are things like Morricone's Cinema Paradiso and a few John Williams films. And, James Horner's Krull which he did in his 20s was very good I thought.

    Two reasons: a) He has gotten some pretty big blockbusters to score, and most importantly b) He has become the torchbearer for every inept charlatan who - until Hans' success - had no business thinking he could write for film. Now, and especially with all the execrable software of ready-made cliches lavishly prostituted (System Requirements: Half a Chromosome, Index Finger), one still cannot do Williams or Morricone, but one can do Zimmer!

    P.S.: How you can love the soundtrack to Cinema Paradiso (simply the best there is) and get any sort of satisfaction from the Inception one is a total mystery to me, but each to their own of course.


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    @Errikos said:

    P.S.: How you can love the soundtrack to Cinema Paradiso (simply the best there is) and get any sort of satisfaction from the Inception one is a total mystery to me, but each to their own of course.

    I haven't seen the film Inception. But I am guessing that it's a provoking film and supports the score. Whereas, great scores support the film, thus making the film, which after all is the important bit, greater than the sum of it's parts; i.e. script, photography, editing, actors etc.

    Jingly Jangly guitar music? Hahahahahaaahhahhahahahhahhahahahahahah


  • This whole thread went astray because the original question was too broad. Better or Worse? I mean come now! I guess I was trying to get to the core of that one and never did, but I'll just say it straight up, better or worse are relational terms so right off we need to know 'better or worse than what?' [I]

    How does the author of the original post  want  'better than' defined-or could he at least give some clues-more than just 'older' film music? What qualities are you using? Just to reiterate my point that everyone missed that have been found to make music "Great"[ip]

    1. Harmony descending cycle of fifths to tonic

    2. Melodic appogiaturas

    3. Melodic or hoarmonic sequence

    4. Enharmonic change

    5. Harmonic or melodic acceleration to cadence

    6 Delay of final cadence

    7. New or unprepared harmony

    8. Sudden or dynamic or textural change

    9. Repeated syncopation

    10. prominent event earlier than prepared for

    So if these are a few of the key features that make for good music, would the readers of this thread please identify which one of these (or carefully  reader defined qualities "long timpani rolls leading up to a crescendo and ending with a cymbal crash") features makes the music better than something else-again the comparison has to be spelled out.

    So again the writer of the original post should have been asked to clarify what he meant before anyone responded as the reusluting responses have been little more than a dj's mash up. [H]


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    @Errikos said:

    one still cannot do Williams or Morricone, but one can do Zimmer!

    is that a fact?

    munch, crunch...


  • civilization3,

    I assume you are enjoying your popcorn.