dsilvercoin,

I'll probably avoid this thread to give some breathing room for others to answer, just an fyi [;)] but I did want to say that I think your setup looks pretty good.

-Sean

P.S. Are you signed up for the VSL Newsletter? I've seen some very wide ranging promo's, from buy one get one free... to buy a dvd and get a download instrument... to anything. They range, and too much discussion on that specific point on here would be useless, just because who knows what they'll offer next? And you don't want to get the wrong impression and see a different offer. But the Newsletter will at least keep you updated. I don't know if they just email you when you create a logon here or what, but if not I'd look into it. Best of luck!

That does look good... the one thing I wish chamber strings had that it does not is fast legato, but the chamber strings are very, very nice, and generally regarded as one of VSL's better libraries.

However, I would suggest you wait at least until December 16 to purchase, as VSL will most likely do a Christmas/holiday promotion.

Last Christmas, VSL ran a promotion IIRC, that was buy 3 (it might have been 4, I don't remember, fairly sure it was 3) standard libraries and/or extended libraries, get one standard and/or extended library free (standard purchase gave standard free, extended purchase gave extended free).  They also did a 2nd promotion of buy one standard library, get one extended library free (limit of one free extended library with this promotion).  VSL's best promotions have generally been mid-December through mid-January.

Of course, there is no guarantee that VSL will do anything similar this year, but still, it is probably best to wait and find out what the promotion(s) will be.

As for where to purchase, if going through ILIO, I would assume you are most likely in North America.  It would be worth comparing ILIO's prices with Sweetwater's, as sometimes Sweetwater is slightly better (on standard libraries), though Sweetwater does not appear to offer all the available bundles.  Regardless, it would still be worth checking.

Thanks for the feedback. I am definitely going to wait to see if there are any promotions and I will be sure to sign up for the newsletter (thanks for the advice!).

The best prices I have found in North America (though many will match) are at B&H photo/video.

Do you think I will be able to get chamber strings to fake a larger ensemble if need be? I realize some creative mixing may be required and that I may even need to layer some of my older libraries.

Also, I plan on buying Vienna Instruments Pro2. I also found that the demos of MIR pro REALLY made the ensembles sound better. Is MIR and/or ensemble another must have like VIP2?

Thanks!

PS sean,

I hope VSL gives you a commission[:P]. And thanks for all your time and feedback in the other thread! 

Can't... resist... replying... lol

Thanks, I'll take my free super package now... cough cough. [G] [:D]

In all seriousness though- VI Pro 2.0 is phenominal. I hesitated at first, thinking 'software? I'm buying a library, not software!' So I then decided to demo the software after getting my library. Yeah, that changed my mind pretty quick. Demoing MIR has convinced me hands down that I want it. I keep spending my money on other things I convince myself I need more (It's that software mentality creeping up, despite my badly wanting it. lol I'm conflicted). But MIR is truly outstanding. With that, I'd recommend demo'ing it. That way you'll know what you're getting. Plus, you want small right now. I'm pretty sure Dietz explained this once on here- that unlike samples, IR's have to be loaded entirely into the ram at all times. MIR is like that times 1000 (literally). So it is important to note that the system requirements for MIR say 12GB for small projects and 24 for large. I'm fairly sure that even one instrument still means that multiple things are loaded within MIR. So even if you are thinking small, if you plan to use MIR I would invest in more memory when you do.

MIR worth it?

I would mention one thing that I think is worth noting. There is a building I live by that is known for it's amazing acoustics. I was reading a doctoral disertation on how its acoustics could be accurately emulated. Due to the complexity of the hall, shape, materials, and so on (if I remember, it was even different durring different seasons in the year....? maybe?)... the level of sophistication would require at least several hundered impulses, and preferably 1000 or more. So MIR seems to have the right approach (is that an understatement?) I can tell you personally that every IR I've ever heard isn't even capable of sounding as good as concerts I've been to live have been. The sound is purely astonishing. I haven't been to the halls in MIR, but it seems that if any reverb can give accurate representation of a real acoustic enviornment, it's MIR. Again, I'd still say to demo it. But with what I just said, and with a price comparison I recently read on here between MIR and other 'high-end' reverbs, it is absolutely worth it in the end. It's just a matter of how important it is right now in your setup for what you are trying to produce at the moment (quality-wise, surround sound, and so on). Those things may matter less for you at this point in time, they may not. Sorry dsilvercoin, I keep pegging that back on you. lol, that's probably a good thing for you in the end though.

-Sean

dsilver, the trouble you may run into is that the basic sound of, say, the chamber violin section is simply different from the orchestral violins, or the AP violins.  In generaly, the larger the section, the less precise, and less intimate the sound.

Somewhere there is a file comparing the overall sound of solo/chamber/orchestra/AP strings to each other, on the same brief piece of music.  It might have been by Beat, or by someone at VSL, but I just don't remember, nor do I remember where to find it (perhaps someone from VSL can chime in here).  At the very least, it could give you a clear idea of what you are aiming towards.

@dsilvercoin said:

Do you think I will be able to get chamber strings to fake a larger ensemble if need be? I realize some creative mixing may be required and that I may even need to layer some of my older libraries.

Short answer is no. To get the best (IMO) large ensemble, I would get Chamber and Appassionata and layer them together. This gives a fantastic sound, and even gives you a kind of vibrato control, if you layer the correct Chamber patches.

Unfortunately neither the Orchestral Strings or Appassionata is a complete library (the App has less than anything else, IMO) so there will still be things that you don't have if you buy one or the other. So the layering thing is the best way to go for my musical taste.

However, beware that the one important thing missing from the App Strings is harmonics. What a pain. [:(]

DG

Thanks everyone for the replies.

Glad to hear that with the appasionada strings and Chamber I'll be able to get a great full scale string orchestra sound. Are the orchestral string libraries just not as up to date these days?

And as for brass, I'm assuming if I want a fuller brass sound, the dimesion brass would be the way to go. Am I right about that?

And thanks for the replies about MIR. I can't believe what a RAM hog it is. With those RAM requirements, one has to have a slave PC, no? Does a MAC even permit that type of RAM?

Thanks again! Here's hoping VSL has some holiday promotions set to launch[:)].

ds.

ps. Why is the special introductory offer on VIP pro2 more expensive than the download from ilio? Am I missing something?

@dsilvercoin said:

Thanks everyone for the replies.

Glad to hear that with the appasionada strings and Chamber I'll be able to get a great full scale string orchestra sound. Are the orchestral

The orchestral strings are great for some things, but a warm, lush sounding melodic legato is not one of them. In piano or mezzo piano they sound great, but any louder and they sound strident and anemic. Some of that can be tamed with EQ and coloured reverb, but there is a limit, and the tiny amount of vibrato at the top level just makes them edgy to my ears.

DG

So the Appasionada strings + chamber syrings will enable me to do everything that orchestral strings will do but more (and better)? Or are there some thing sthat the orchestral strings can handle on their own that none of the other colections can handle?

@noldar12 said:

Somewhere there is a file comparing the overall sound of solo/chamber/orchestra/AP strings to each other, on the same brief piece of music.  It might have been by Beat, or by someone at VSL, but I just don't remember, nor do I remember where to find it (perhaps someone from VSL can chime in here).  At the very least, it could give you a clear idea of what you are aiming towards.

nolder12,

is this what you were referring to?

http://www.slb-o.com/index.php/forum/The-Recipes/11-A-challenge-for-string-libraries

 The Orchestral Strings have many more articulations, but the only thing that I regularly use them for is harmonics.

DG

No, that is not it, I will see if I can find what I am thinking of.

Regarding the various string libraries, to me, AP Strings is in some ways the weak link of the four (solo/chamber/orchestra/AP).  It simply does not have near the articulations of the other libraries, and if one does any serious writing for the double-bass section, the articulations for the basses in AP Strings are badly lacking.  Conversely, orchestra strings lack any intense vibrato patches.  Having said that, I am generally not after "Hollywood".  One can get fairly lush layering orchestra/chamber strings (or add solo as well).  I will probably purchase AP strings at some point, but that would be quite a ways off (there are other VSL libraries that have clear priority for me).  In the end, what "works" or "doesn't work" depends on one's primary writing style(s).  Ultimately, that is one main reason none of us can decide what libraries are best for you, as what is best will depend on your compositional goals.

Curiously, there have been comments about users having troubles blending chamber strings and AP strings.  However, I would take DG's comments very seriously, as he is one of the most knowledgeable (far moreso than myself), and most helpful, persons to regularly post on the forum.

@noldar12 said:

No, that is not it, I will see if I can find what I am thinking of.

Regarding the various string libraries, to me, AP Strings is in some ways the weak link of the four (solo/chamber/orchestra/AP).  It simply does not have near the articulations of the other libraries, and if one does any serious writing for the double-bass section, the articulations for the basses in AP Strings are badly lacking.  Conversely, orchestra strings lack any intense vibrato patches.  Having said that, I am generally not after "Hollywood".  One can get fairly lush layering orchestra/chamber strings (or add solo as well).  I will probably purchase AP strings at some point, but that would be quite a ways off (there are other VSL libraries that have clear priority for me).  In the end, what "works" or "doesn't work" depends on one's primary writing style(s).  Ultimately, that is one main reason none of us can decide what libraries are best for you, as what is best will depend on your compositional goals.

Curiously, there have been comments about users having troubles blending chamber strings and AP strings.  However, I would take DG's comments very seriously, as he is one of the most knowledgeable (far moreso than myself), and most helpful, persons to regularly post on the forum.

 LOL. Well you won't like what I'm going to post now then:

99.99999% (and that's a fact. Or is it a statistic?) of composers only know 4 articulations for Double bass, and 2 of those start with "woof", so I wouldn't let that colour your judgment on which sample library to buy. [;)]

DG

dsilver, the two demos I was thinking of (but was not remembering) are two demos under the "strings complete" package.  The two are "Irish Strings" and "Compare Rag".  Both feature the same material being played first by solo strings, then chamber, then orchestra, and last, AP Strings.  They give a very good comparison of the basic sound of the four different libraries.

They demonstrate fairly well that one library really cannot substitute for another (though certainly can be layered with).

DG, one of my favorite quotes about statistics: "Torture the data enough and it will confess to anything." <smile>

Actually, in all too many cases, you are right.  Composers either tend to write for bass (Beethoven, etc.), or relatively ignore it (Copland, among others).  Most do opt for "ignore".  For film scoring, what is in AP Strings, sadly, is probably enough (growl, whine, or menacing rumble).  For traditional orchestral writing, the answer would be different.

One of my favorite double-bass stories (a true one): Gary Karr (a now semi-retired double-bass solo concert artist - am guessing he is now about 70ish or so, and arguably the best solo bassist ever (Klaus Stoll and some others also rank up there), when in college, was in the university's chamber orchestra as the only bassist.  At every rehearsal the conductor kept saying the usual, "The bass is too loud."  Gary decided to play the entire concert keeping the bow an inch above the strings (while fingering every note, of course).  Afterwards, the conductor commented to him that he had played extremely well during the concert (note: the story was told by Gary, himself).

So yes, the bass: best seen but not heard.

@Another User said:

One of my favorite double-bass stories (a true one): Gary Karr (a now semi-retired double-bass solo concert artist - am guessing he is now about 70ish or so, and arguably the best solo bassist ever (Klaus Stoll and some others also rank up there), when in college, was in the university's chamber orchestra.  At every rehearsal the conductor kept saying the usual, "The bass is too loud."  Gary decided to play the entire concert keeping the bow an inch above the strings (while fingering every note, of course).  Afterwards, the conductor commented to him that he had played extremely well during the concert (note: the story was told by Gary, himself).

So yes, the bass: best seen but not heard.

Totally OT, but I was lucky enough to work with Gary once (or maybe twice?). Unfortunately I was too young to appreciate fully what I was hearing.

DG

DG, during college days (a few decades ago) I got to participate in a couple of Gary's master classes.  He did a tremendous amount of presentations for grade schoolers as well as master classes for all levels of players, not just the best of the best (I started playing bass very, very late).

The Gavotte he played for grade schoolers (using it to tell a story of Fly Fly, the fly, and an elephant IIRC), is, unfortunately, no longer in print.

Side note to get back on topic: one of the reasons I so appreciate the VSL Solo Strings library is that the solo bass in it can come surprisingly close to being able to mimic what one can actually do with a bass bow (the stretch feature really helps here).

@noldar12 said:

(the stretch feature really helps here)

I've been finding that the new envelope abilities within VI Pro 2.0 will forever be a necessity for everything I do. I've practically built my entire template around this one feature. It allows for controlling so much of what a real performance would include. Legato speed, Staccato length, vibrato amount, and effects. I've used it to ritard and accelerate the bpm fast-rep patches, trills, and so on. So not only does this allow for more realistic bowings and mouthings, but even the sustained performance itself.

While I've seemingly pushed an even more side topic here, I'd suggest that this feature simply serves to establish the VSL library as truly set apart from the others. (which is at least more on topic than this point initially seems). Either way, I think the time stretching abilities alone set VSL apart not merely in style or preference, but in it's ever expansive capabilities. My Time Stretch Cache folder is currently 200GB in size and I haven't even finished my template. And I'm not going overboard for the sake of being arbitrary. I've actually been adjusting the instruments for the sake of having a truly flexible template.

That's a lot to say about a rather small sub-point you brought up. But I could not help but speak out for how true your statement really is, in my opinion.

-Sean

Thanks again everyone for all of the great information. i really appreciate all the feedback and feel very fortunate to have the benefit of your experience. It speaks a lot to the quality of VSL.

And yes, the kind of music I write will dictate which VSL products I buy. But when choosing between the various packages and libraries it is hard to figure out how to spend one's money wisely. We have all bought that library or piece of gear that winds up never getting used and while I know that that is a somewhat unavoidable part of the job, it's best to avoid it when possible. And since VSL does offer discount for buying bundles, it's hard ot know what to choose. Some of the deals are no brainers money wise (the complete chamber strings and the complete percusion, for example) others are not.

ds