w21994,

Actually to me there was a notable difference. However, such differences didn't suggest that one library was supreme or 'raising the bar'. That was my primary concern and why I replied. In every other sense, there is good in every library. Although personally, I find that VSL's libraries are the only consistent all around choice for realism. But then again, all that is personal preference, no?

Anyway, the differences mainly showed that each library had strong points. Very few articulations from other libraries have impressed me completely more than VSL, and only in very limited circumstances. That's my take. But I would absolutely agree that the demo's VSL provides have not been the greatest examples of the VSL library's capability. It's uses in actual production scenarios have been. My own personal experience with Hollywood Strings was not that it sounds more real at all. I  absolutely did not mean that and if it came across, perhaps I errored in my writing. Hollywood Strings impressed me in the lower strings and primarily in the longer articulations. My impression was not that they were better... but a difference that was good. The upper strings almost never sounded good to me. In fact, every time I hear them I generally complain. I also thought Spitfire's lower strings sound good as well. I later learned that I was making some major errors in judgement for my own library and how I was mixing it. After correcting some issues, I find VSL's string library's absolutely satisfactory. So to each his own, I guess.

Regarding Brass comparisons. I feel I have neglected this a bit too much on here. Strings really aren't everything. While I love VSL strings, I am not as ademate about my love for VSL with strings as I am Brass. I prefer the Solo Strings and Chamber above any competitor. Orchestral and Appassionata I think are great, but could improve (I still prefer them to others). I do like Spitfire, but the limitations are too much to bare. Thus why it is an ideal add-on and only such. But with Brass. Oh wow, I could not even express my love for VSL Brass. I am a multiple brass player myself.

Well, I might as well just give my take on VSL vs Spitfire and EW (things I like and dislike about each) as I think it's come to that. Hopefully VSL won't mind this too much- I'll at least be fair to each company... lol [:-*]

HB Trumpet = Were they joking?

HB Horn = A few really GREAT things, a bunch of so-so (some good some meh)

HB Trombone = Almost as bad as trumpet, but a few good parts.

HB Tuba = Suprizingly my favorite part of the library. I actually think it sounds great. I'd even buy HB for that alone if I had the budget for a $1k Tuba, lol

Spitfire vs VSL = I only have the general brass demo's and the trumpet demo. The overall sound of my solo VSL trumpet, section, and fanfare sections impress me more than Spitfire's demo's. A LOT more. BUT, the spitfire release samples sound great. I love hearing the valve movement in the release. I wish for the life of me that I could have this with VSL (not exclusively, ideally a 'release sample volume or style' option would be just great! I own Epic Horns and Fanfare Trumpets. While even the solo and smaller sections sound better than other offerings, with the addition of those and soon the trombone section, my brass will just be pure power in sound.

Woodwinds with VSL to me have always been paramount. I LOVE the VSL woodwind library. However, this is the one time I would give VSL's title up. Spitfire just amazed me. I only play the Tenor Saxaophone and the Clarinet, but everything woodwind they have made has just sounded so beautiful. Georgous. Could I go on? They blend! ACTUALLY BLEND! lol VSL's does blend as well with some mixing work, as I've recently discovered. But I still think Spitfire is champion on this one.

So again, I ultimately think VSL is my prefered library almost entirely. I'd love to get as much Spitfire to fill in with VSL, then EW I'd have as a seldom filler... for the times that you just need a different sound. Again, all this humbly imo.

Dimension Woodwinds... eh? (Maybe I'm wrong and Dietz is right... I mean seriously, who wants more winds and strings in favor of the almighty cowbell? lol) [8] Bonk! [8]

-Sean

 dsilvercoin,

"iscorefilm" has provided some info about his experience with different samples. But don't take it to heart. He sounds too BIAS towards VSL. I don't want to start a word fight but he states that the VSL demos are not good but the individual VSL's instrument sections are very good, probably the best. What's the point of having tons of instrument sections that are really good if in the end, the overall sound doesn't sound as good. He wrote 4 pages about why is VSL much better but never issued the SIMPLE question, DEMO wise VSL can't match HS or Spit as of today 

There is no need to be hostile. I in every way included that it was my personal experience and that it should only be taken as such. Having made more than one effort to make that known in my comment, any claim of bias is simply unwarranted. Bias and having an opinion aren't the same thing. I have my preference, but I have rational explanations for why I made my choice. I also stated that the best thing would be to listen and decide for youself. Being that I was asked what I thought of a sample library, I thought I would elaborate and provide a more detailed picture of how I came to my conclusion. If I can draw my conclusion out on paper, it only helps someone else to examine whether or not they agree with it or not.

If you want bias, it's telling someone how to think about something. When asked for an opinion, giving it with cautionary and with the ultimate conclusion to decide for yourself- then I believe I have adequately and fairly addressed the question presented to me.

I stated what I personally see as strong points and weakpoints within each library. I even stated something I don't like about VSL's offerings. Either way, I believe in taking the time to defend myself so this is it. Otherwise, we should probably try to stay on topic. [;)]

-Sean

dsilvercoin,

I have a few answers that I think may just help you find some closure.

@dsilvercoin said:

I'm not sure that I'm much closer to knowing what I should get.

If in ANY way possible, the best way is to use both libraries first then decide. That way you'll know you've made a choice you're happy with. Althought his obviously may not be a reaslitic option. If it is, do it!

I know some EW fans that prefer VSL solo instruments, and I've seen the same thing on here. I don't know if that's a majority or not... but ultimately if you choose EW, just keep in mind that it doesn't exactly prevent you from being able to add the VSL Solo String DVD to your collection.

I think these demo's show the abilities of the VSL Solo Strings best, again imo.

Prayer - Cello & Piano by Ernest Bloch

Mourning - Cello & Orchestra

Strinq Quartet op. 59/3 - Finale

Your system will handle things fine. I'm assuming by 2X you mean you have a dual socket board with two cpu's, no? I have a dual socket AMD myself. And from what I've read, if you ever look at MIR it's practically necessary for anything of a bigger size. So you're fine there, You're ram could grow, BUT with Vi Pro 2.0's new utilizing of an SSD, you can load 10x the samples into ram, so either more RAM or an SSD would help a lot. But by all means, that's if you're a freak like me who wants everything loaded all the time, lol. You can get buy fine with what you have though.

I have an EMU card. After doing extensive research, I'd prefer to get an RME or a Lynx (undecided) but that's a preference. My interface now does the job but I myself need a serious upgrade there.

Hopefully that helps.

-Sean

No problem. I NEVER mind answering anything I can on here because I've gotten help on here myself. And if I take the help, I figure I better give it.

The samples will load faster simply because you have an SSD, so a faster drive. I would recommend paying the $20-50 more for one that has a decent read speed. You may see a lot with 200-300 MB read. But the new Sata III's have plenty of 500+ read speeds on them, and that alone is worth it. If you have a Mac Pro, (I don't but I'm thinking about getting a Mac for Digital Performer's features) I'm pretty sure that only Lion has Trim support. You'll want that for an SSD for sure as without an OS supporting trim, the drive life can be reduced greatly with any use.

Yeah, the old EW stuff I thought was night and day difference. VSL clearly won imo. But with Hollywood Strings specifically I think it's mainly even with certain things standing out with each library. While I don't like the upper strings, I should have said that it was more of a preference... the overall sound isn't as dramatically different as in their old stuff.

Regarding the solo instruments. I did this a while back for a school assignment. It was simple. Nothing more than basing something loosely off of a tone row or two. I'm not a string player so I've been told that the Viola is a bit loud in the demo, but I'm learning Violin now! lol Either way, I'm mentioning this 'demo' for the sake of showing you the solo strings in just the Special Edition, with no EQ or anything done to improve the sound. I'm fairly sure I did add a cubase limiter (crap, fyi) to it. I now use George Yohng's free W1 limiter. It's essentially a Waves clone as it states on his site. But it's free and is phenominally better. Not that you asked about this, but I thought I'd tee it up as I just love this limiter, lol.

Either way, the link to this short tone row example is here (on SoundCloud). Again, nothing impressive at all, but enough to show how even the very basic VSL library as being better than 'kontakt vsl', and even being mostly untouched (eq, etc) it still sounds great.

http://snd.sc/uNZKuX

-Sean

@dsilvercoin said:

and sorry for the single paragraph posts. For some reason when this forum posts my replies, it condenses everything into one paragraph).

You have to change some settings in your Forum Profile (click on the thumbnail for details):

HTH,

dsilver, I think that in one of your recent posts you may have more or less answered the question as far as which way you should go with your purchases.

If, as you state, you are doing more small ensemble compositions, VSL would likely prove the better choice.  Between the solo strings, chamber strings, and woodwinds, you would have a wealth of options for small ensemble/chamber compositions.  If, on the other hand, you were more into large/lush/Hollywood type sound, then some of the libraries from the "noble competition" might be a better way to go.  One of the great things about VSL is its flexibility to adapt to many different styles, compared to those designed more strictly for a "Hollywood" sound.

Thank 

    you

       Dietz!

Sean,

Since the East West stuff is so much cheaper, would you advocate buying their HW brass and strings and then VSL solo stuff?

dsilvercoin

 Hi Sean,

 Hope you won't expect Dietz to answer to this question :)), just kidding maybe he will..

 Best

@ dsilvercoin: You're welcome!

BTW - thanks in advance for keeping the discussion on 3rd-party products at an acceptable level ... ;-)

@dsilvercoin said:

Since the East West stuff is so much cheaper, would you advocate buying their HW brass and strings and then VSL solo stuff?

This can be a difficult question to address... but as biased as I'll sound for a moment, my conclusion is still very open ended (sorry)... BUT I think it may help you come to a conclusion you will be happy with.

If flexibility is paramount across the spectrum, then no. I'd say VSL. If you prefer the HS sound and intend to have that sound in most or all of your work, then you'd probably be safe with that and VSL solo strings. My personal choice is to wait on any major string expansions until VSL releases some kind of Dimension strings, etc. But that's because I already have an adequate enough and diverse base for the meantime. But if you desire to purchase a library now (as I'm assuming you do)... AND you don't hear a big difference in the resulting sound... then personally the only other consideration I can see would be cost vs ease of use. I will elaborate on that. I could also see someone arguing 'stay within one library for ease of management, etc' but honestly that doesn't appeal to me very much. I care about sound realism more than anything else. After that I care about ease, but not at the expense of sound. That's always been my main approach in decision making.

Cost vs Ease -

I'm not sure how familiar you are or aren't with EW's and VSL's setups. This may sound a bit anti-EW cause I'm starting out with a 'plus' for VSL but keep in mind, I'm not going to ignore that it is cheaper. I'm just giving you a weight on the other side of the balance to help make the decision more informed (and sorry, probably harder as you said...lol) EW has promised a new sample player for years and have talked about the development for a long time. With no new developments there, you would be using their current software. This means midi channel per articulation. Some people have found some creative ways to help ease that pain... but it is still a pain to work with. I don't want to have a staccato track for each instrument, and a sustain, and a... I want a cello line, and I want to write for that like I would manuscript. I prefer this. VSL, in even the free Vienna Instruments, is well beyond the capabilities of EW or Kontakt or any other offering. VI Pro only expands the control of how you build your template. I'm not even talking about Humanize, auto-divisi, tuning options, and all the other great features lacking in the alternatives. I'm simply talking the basics of your template at this point (keyswitching options, routing, etc). VSL software makes life very easy with how flexible it allows your workflow to be. Even many EW users would agree with this point.

By all means, if your budget is limited then the consideration of cost may be just as important. Therefore, I'm not trying to sway you away from EW and that is why I'm mentioning this ultimate concluding point- If you don't hear a big difference in sound... what else is there between them? To me, the only things that stand out are cost vs ease of use.

I hope I haven't made that too hard for you, lol. But I think that this is an accurate answer enough to help you be informed enough in your decisions.

-Sean

(Although, I'd advocate HS with VSL brass before HS and HB... and yeah, I'll admit some bias on that one. I just like how VSL brass sounds, lol)

Oh, and speaking of brass. When listening to HB vs VSL... I'd recommend listening to the Fanfare trumpet's Star Wars demo's for VSL. I'm not trying to discredit EW... It would still be important to listen to both sides, of course. I only intend to provide what I'd recommend for listening to on this site as to me, those specific demos are very convincing.

-Sean

 dsilvercoin,

I hope you got as much info as you wanted. "iscorefilm" is an info machine that spits out data haha. If your field was small ensembles, then VSL is the way to go. Nothing can match in this area as of today. Public opinion counts big and streaming thru VSL blogs, everyone seem very happy... now that's a big plus to lean towards VSL. As much as I praised Hollywood Strings and Hollywood Brass, and Spitfire... I don't see a REGULAR user making demos in their products. On the VSL site, most demos contain the wave file and also the MIDI file to download if you wanted to see how it was done. VSL has to admit that some of the demos displayed are HORRIBLE! but they do it anyways, they show you both sides of the story

w21994,

I actually think SOME of the demo's are great (like the Starwars ones and the previous solo string ones I referenced)... but in general, I agree. Much of the VSL demo's aren't all that amazing. I understand why to a degree from what I assume is VSL's perspective, but I would still agree that they could and should put some better demo's on here! (Or at least remove some of the less appealing ones... less of great is better than many of wide ranging quality, imo)

And yes, I spit it out alright- and proud of it! With those I know personally, I'm often compared to "Johnny 5" from Short Circuit "Input! Input!" as I could go on for hours about something I find interesting or useful. I get this looming feeling that someday the VSL team will reach their limit with me and say, "Seriously... he's still jabbering on and on? Let's just delete his account and get rid of him!" lol

-Sean

Thank you all for all the advice. It is so greatly appreciated. I will get VSL and add on other libraries as needed. The question I have to figure ou tnow is which package(s) to get. 

Perhaps it is best to start this question in a new/ mor especific thread, but if anyone wants to chime in here I'd be most appreciatove. Again, a VSL rep said that they thought that the Special Edition would not be enough of a bump up from what I've got (Miroslav, Garittan 1st edition, QL brass 1st edition).  He recommended I look at the cube which is an appealing, though expensive possibility.

However, perhaps there is a better fit of instruments (solo and sections) that one could put together on their own and then add as need (jobs) requires. I know solo instruments would be a necessity as would some of orchestral sections (there are just so many VSL offerings that it's hard to know which one is best).

Thanks all![:)]

 iscorefilm,

if you think you can compare the VSL "Star Wars" theme demo to any of the EW Hollywood Series demo, you are high on crack. I would question your musicianship. Any musician with decent listening capabilities will tell you that the demos on EW sound more "real"

w21994,

I mixed Jay Bacal's version of "Star Wars Theme". We A/B-ed Willams' original and the virtual version constantly throughout the whole production, and from a certain point onwards the sound was so close that things were starting to get confusing. Maybe the EW demos sound more real than real.

I can live with the fact that you obviously dispute _my_ hearing capabilities; OTOH, I think it's quite offensive to tell the same thing to literally thousands of musicians on this board who don't share your opinion.

But I have a real problem with the fact that you're starting fellow forum members calling names with your 19th message already, only because you quite clearly have a strong bias towards a 3rd-party product.

I'd say this thread has clearly outlived its raison d'être now. We will close it before things get out of hand.

Sincerely,