Is that only for Linux?
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Hear, hear! Maybe we should start a petition... See how many people out there are actual Linux users. I've been a happy one now for nearly two years and it's such a good and reliable system. The only reason I keep Windows is because of VSL. The DAW, Rosegarden, is pretty good and for notation I love Musescore... It creates beautiful parts! So it's just VSL and Kontakt that keep me on Windows...
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VSL, Cubase (5, for VST expression), and Kontakt for me.
The problem is that everyone has 'the few' that they want, and all those combined add up. There simply isn't market for it. So I doubt a petition will change VSL's mind. But I'd gladly sign it anyway, lol. Linux isn't as great as it's made out to be. For developers, for standardized features and gui, etc- there are several problems that seem to never get worked out entirely. Windows isn't problem free by any means... but where most developers want certain things, most companies want certain things... So even if all users wanted linux (and I think enough really do), Windows 'does the job' for developers better than Linux, imo... so I doubt we'll see anything worthwhile soon.
Just imagine though, MIR Pro, VE5, Cubase, Kontakt, etc. running on Linux. I don't think I could contain myself! lol
-Sean
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I'm interested in what you say... I've used Linux for over two years and I've found it to be excellent! Not that I'm contradicting you. But I have tried their softwares and synths and found them to be far more stable, less glitchy, almost zero latency and overall much easier to use/learn (thanks to customizing options). Now VSL has to be the most stable software I run on Windows, Cubase and Sibelius still crash from time to time.
Which problems do you see still need worked out exactly?
I think the computer composing world is still largely divided in two: the ones that input directly into a DAW or the ones like me that still write a score before dumping into a DAW to tweak. If one software could do both I'm sure they would get most of the market since it would be more compatible for everyone. Now Cubase and Rosegarden can do both, but their scores are not good enough to print (though in Rosegarden you can export to Lillypond in which case you get the best looking scores). If VSL worked with Rosegarden I would be happy to switch permanently and tell all my students to do the same...
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As far as I can tell the real issue here is not the OS, but the dividing line which exists between notation programs
and sequencers. What falls into that gap, is the fine control which is need to bring the variations in sound libraries and
rigid text-to-midi rules together so that compositions sound as realistic as possible.
BTW, I have used linux for over a decade too, and have hated every poorly documented, committee designed and occasionally GUI phobic
moment of it.
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On another topic, I would like to add that I've been trying MusicXML between Sibelius and Notion. I've been doing some tests, composing in Notion and then exporting everything to Sibelius for printing and I'm very happy with the results, at least for small ensembles, I'm yet to try a full orchestral score.
are there some preliminary tasks to accomplish? because I swear when I tried it was a mess ... all the note were on their own (no beams ...) a lot of hairpins and dynamics were not correctly placed and so on ...
anyway a single solution would be great
there also a lot of people on the notion forum that dream of collaboration between reaper and notion ...
But I start to fear collaborationsand company acquisitions... nothing good from them
it seems that the needs of musicians are not very satisfied ... only the market needs ... look at PT and Sibelius ... at yamaha and steinberg ... did they have produced something near the expectation of the musicians ? leader companies united together only to produce toys for beatmaking ....
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BTW, I have used linux for over a decade too, and have hated every poorly documented, committee designed and occasionally GUI phobic moment of it.
I think dshertz hit this right on the mark on each point. The democratic nature of Linux developement is great!I love the philosophy, but it isn't perfect either. The problems it poses, such as constistancy and other things are real issues that are largely ignored. I saw an MSDN page (Microsoft) that was part of an encyclopedia on Windows design. While there is a lot of clutter in Windows, it really has a great deal that other OS's don't. Aside from what windows includes, this page I came across talked VERY intelligently about dialog box's and windows and how they are text-formatted. They showed how things should be done a very specific way, that made users feel less intimidated, made the software feel more usable and readable, and when to break from this. It was brilliant. EVERY thing I have ever seen in linux has not followed this at all. I notice inconsistent formatting, shabby 'thrown together' design, and other problems that are heavily 'gui and user-friendly' nightmares.
The biggest problem with linux, is that when Ubuntu said 'we're upping the gui', a large chunk of Linux geek users/developers said 'uh, you're ruining linux'. Aesthetics are the last thing on many linux developers minds, but this deters a great deal of potential user base. There are plenty of logical reasons for aesthetics that are overlooked in favor of people who quite frankly should still be living in a dos enviornment by their mentality. If Linux can grow up and compete visually (and the recent Ubuntu changes are a start, not an end... they have catching up to do) then Linux could well take over the world for all I care... and they could probably even become a major player.
In the end, I really only think that gui (not just shiny looks, but intelligently functioning gui) is what we need for Linux to be mainstreem. Only then, I think companies like Steinberg and others start to develope Cubase and others. When that happens, THEN VSL will finally jump on. So I have no false hopes here. And I have no serious problems with Linux. I only wish that the development direction would focus more on things that will attract more users, because my sole thought process in that is "I want VSL on linux!!! NOW!!!... oh yeah, and Cubase!" lol
I hope that answers your question.
-Sean
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@arkham said:
anyway a single solution would be great
there also a lot of people on the notion forum that dream of collaboration between reaper and notion
I'm a HUGE reaper fanatic. Great program. I love Notion, Sibelius looks georgious to me... but Notion is 10x more functional for what I need, with few Sibelius features I wish it had. Notion development has slowed to a crawl, so little may come here... but If I could have a Notion/Reaper/VSL hybrid setup that was a one-stop and shop sollution... that handled things the way that most comments earlier in this thread were suggesting... if I could have that, screw divisi, screw everything. I'd sign in blood and sell every last thing I had to get it! That 'dream program' essentially would save what I think are the majority of users, a LOT of time and headache! PLEASE! Someone from VSL or somewhere hear us out and by sympathetic on us! lol
-Sean
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My two cents: I still begin everything in paper and then move two Sibelius. My problem is that my work is still divided between 50% clients that want the actual produced music and those that just want the score for their bands/orchestra. As it stands, once I finish a composition/arrangement if the client needs the music I dump it into Cubase to tweak and produce, but I don't like it because I have to keep the score open in another monitor as a reference. If the client needs score then I can stay in Sibelius and just proof read and work out the layout. The main reason I didn't move to Notion, which at first looked quite exciting, is because it didn't do either job (Cubase and Sibelius) well. The scores were unacceptable and the tweaking limited and complicated. If they create a notation software that you can truly tweak for realistic performance it would be a major bonus in the sense that I can tweak from an actual score (instead of a piano roll that I just find confusing), but if I have to then export to another notation editor to be able to produce industry standard scores, then it's not really saving me much time. However I would still buy it! Especially if it's made by VSL! C.
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@clruwe said:
The main reason I didn't move to Notion, which at first looked quite exciting, is because it didn't do either job (Cubase and Sibelius) well. The scores were unacceptable and the tweaking limited and complicated.
If they create a notation software that you can truly tweak for realistic performance it would be a major bonus in the sense that I can tweak from an actual score (instead of a piano roll that I just find confusing)
Agreed! I think that Notion doesn't do either job as well as it should. Note entry in Notion (via mouse) is more work than Sibelius. Notion doesn't have enough scoring features, but I don't think it's horribly far off. Cubase can do loads more than Notion. I don't think people expect that from Notion, but at least more than what's there. 4 midi ports kills me! I use 10!! (And I'm ALWAYS expanding! lol) I'm anti piano role! It has it's uses and I love it, but I hate it. I LOVE notation. I think notation. When I see a G on the score, I hear a G. When I see a piano role, I hear nothing! Growing up, playing instruments... we don't read piano roles. I read notation, so that's what's ingraved into my brain! Notion is notation, but not as powerful as cubase. More scoring features to me is secondary... as long as the score looks accurate enough to the performance in timings, etc. Then I'd be happy exporting to Sibelius or something for printing work and adjusting the performance for real performers. I basically want Cubase, but with the ability to use notation as I think. But everything else about Cubase is spot on to me.
-Sean
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Sibelius was the first program to imbed in my brain "Hit Ctrl-S or face your DOOM!" as I once lost 46 bars of fully-orchestral, climatic glory because of an auto-save file was corrupted.
Ha! So true! Mine has actually developed to the level of a nervous twitch! Even if I change one articulation or even move a note slightly to the left, my left hand is constantly Ctrl+S. Funny isn't it?Concerning GUI, I was probably the last person of my generation to have a computer and it basically came about because of my inability to compete in world where everyone uses computers. Till 6 years ago I was still working all my commissions in paper and hiring musicians and studios to get the work done, but then I started to become too expensive in comparison to other fellow composers who could the work in half the time (thanks to computers) and at third of the price (mo musician/studio fees). Anyway, my point is that I found Windows to be very unfriendly in GUI respect. I don't like the look (it hurts my eyes after a few hours), though I have customized it to a degree. And the main reason I moved to Linux was my ability to customize everything to look however I wanted. Of course I'm mainly talking about explorer (nautilus). But I use certain programs that have their own UI like Firefox, Songbird, Spotify and their UI are beutiful. So I don't see why developers can't run their own GUI on Linux. I have to disagree with some of your comments about linux GUI, since there are hundreds of sites devoted to making everything look however you wish. Unlike Windows where you are quite limited even with extra software like WindowBlinds (it just makes Windows crash even more often). And of course finally, the ability that you can alter files to change the configuration of softwares is another major bonus of Linux and with Google you don't even have to know about programming, just copy paste.
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@clruwe said:
The main reason I didn't move to Notion, which at first looked quite exciting, is because it didn't do either job (Cubase and Sibelius) well. The scores were unacceptable and the tweaking limited and complicated.
If they create a notation software that you can truly tweak for realistic performance it would be a major bonus in the sense that I can tweak from an actual score (instead of a piano roll that I just find confusing)
Agreed! I think that Notion doesn't do either job as well as it should. Note entry in Notion (via mouse) is more work than Sibelius. Notion doesn't have enough scoring features, but I don't think it's horribly far off. Cubase can do loads more than Notion. I don't think people expect that from Notion, but at least more than what's there. 4 midi ports kills me! I use 10!! (And I'm ALWAYS expanding! lol) I'm anti piano role! It has it's uses and I love it, but I hate it. I LOVE notation. I think notation. When I see a G on the score, I hear a G. When I see a piano role, I hear nothing! Growing up, playing instruments... we don't read piano roles. I read notation, so that's what's ingraved into my brain! Notion is notation, but not as powerful as cubase. More scoring features to me is secondary... as long as the score looks accurate enough to the performance in timings, etc. Then I'd be happy exporting to Sibelius or something for printing work and adjusting the performance for real performers. I basically want Cubase, but with the ability to use notation as I think. But everything else about Cubase is spot on to me.
-Sean
Oh! absolutely agree about Cubase and its ability to do everything!!! But like you I thing notation and I can't work in Piano Roll. So either Cubase gets its notation better (will never happen, not their market) or Sibelius/Finale/Notion get their playback tweaking more advanced.
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@clruwe said:
Ha! So true! Mine has actually developed to the level of a nervous twitch!lol, I love it! "nervous twitch" describes it perfectly. I do it out of habit every minute or so, then any time I do something I like, and every now and then when I realize it's been longer than the normal 'minute interval or so' I do the nervous twitch thing and attack my keyboard. I had a professor ask 'what's the most important 'first thing' in computer music work you should learn?' and I said "Make ctrl-s a habit" jokingly... turned out that it was what he was going to say.
Cubase truly is amazing, but I also don't think they will improve notation anytime soon. My hopes WERE with Notion, thinking they'll just improve until they can do what Cubase is capable of... but with the slow development, I've lost hope altogether. Now I just wait thinking maybe someday someone will do it. - The sad thing is, I absolutely think there is a market for it. Cubase 7 with decent notation editing (bare minimum like Notion, hopefully more like Sibelius for me personally) and I think MANY users would convert to Cubase in a heartbeat! (Not to mention existing Cubase users that want it.)
Anyway, I don't mean to keep you... but I'm always willing to talk about this point, as I think it's the most crucial for me personally in getting more use of the time I'm at my workstation to compose. The second most crucial thing, as I mentioned much earlier on in this thread... was the desire for less work in 'programming the sound'. I think the goal is 'no programming necessary for realistic performance; the only programming done would be to adjust the style of performance or how it's performed' - Any thoughts there? This comes from taking a LONG time to 1) draw out crossfades (I don't have a mod wheel or breath controller, which is horrific but will soon change) and the fact that I don't just plunk out a Violin I part. I take the orchestral strings, chamber, and sometimes solo Violin... to make a more dynamic string section where the pitch is less perfect (only enough for variance, not a bad performance) and where the timings are looser, and where the chamber gets a little louder or softer faster or slower than the rest of the performers. DVZ string library has got the right approach in many ways to do this very thing. But 1) I think VSL sounds much better and 2) I think VSL has the best philosophy on building things well from the ground up, so any future divisi library we see will surely be impressive. - The point though, is that I wish that getting a 'realistic' playback performance takes far more work than it really should. This and the Cubase notation point are the most concerning to me.
If you don't have time to answer that, I understand. That could open a whole other long discussion. [;)] But at least this is relevant to the original ideas in this thread anyway, so it isn't off-topic.
-Sean
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@clruwe said:
So I don't see why developers can't run their own GUI on Linux.Somehow I saw the ctrl-S reply and forgot to keep reading...lol 1) I can't believe I never considered that... Great point! 2) There are plenty of sites devoted to making things look the way you want. I agree. But personally I rarely like these gui themes, and the few that I think are good are often not 'complete' where there are parts where things don't look right, etc. I guess I'm being a bit picky there... but my main concern with GUI isn't so much personal preference, but wanting Linux to get more followers. I WANT Linux to succeed. I just worry that the development of it isn't doing a couple things right for that to happen. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd be happy to be wrong about that...lol. Yes, I went the WindowBlinds route - crashy crashy, that's for sure. I find that no one does enough for mult-monitor users. I've tried a couple programs for extending the taskbar, etc. But these programs don't maximize windows properly, etc. I've wished that Cubase and VE would have more flexibility in their window design (more so with Cubase).
Maybe OpenOctaveMidi will show promise... I hope it does. I can't remember from when I looked into it... but I thought that the Notation options (rosegarden? can't remember...) weren't up to what I wanted. I didn't like a couple things about how much work it seemed to take to get OpenOctaveMidi up and running, but maybe I'm remembering wrong. Either way, I'm glad to see some work being done there. My biggest complaint about it wasn't notation or setup though. I NEED VST EXPRESSION! lol as I don't care for the side articulation menu... I build my own instruments, with keyswitches, etc. Without VST expression, I'm very limited.
Is our OpenOctaveMidi guy still following this thread?
-Sean
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I don't think that the only problem with linux would be daws and libraries, but also drivers for audio cards and other gear ...
I know that there are some reverse engineering projects to write drivers for some audio cards, but honestly it would look like to go back 10 years in the past, desperately looking for a compatible nic or modem or whatsoever ...
I'm an IT professional and a huge linux fan, but even if I'm convinced that linux is good for a lot of stuff, it is clear that audio, video and gaming industries simply don't care about linux ...
Anyway Openoctave looks amazing, but just know, with which libraries is supposed to work ?
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Yes but mind you, some of us still require both jobs: some work just requires me to produce professional looking parts. Others they just want a full on orchestra with choirs that sound as good as any Hollywood film. Thus a slightly better notation in Cubase or slightly more tweaking in Sibelius wouldn't really change anything for me. I would still have to use both of them.
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@clruwe said:
Thus a slightly better notation in Cubase or slightly more tweaking in Sibelius wouldn't really change anything for me. I would still have to use both of them.Yeah, that's where I differ from most on this thread. I don't mind exporting to something like Sibelius, so long as the 'Cubase notation' is at least accurate enough to what it should be.
I'm more focused in a good notation midi editor. I want to put a staccato, and have a staccato played (like VST expression, or Sibelius sets) ... so I want notation in that regard... but I want playback flexibility, mixing, and everything else like Cubase has. Notion is really the only option out there for guys like me. But I certainly wouldn't complain if Cubase added fully capable notation features. I believe Errikos (a user on here) said something like you, wanting full out notation features, etc. VSL has a market for MIR, VEP, even VIP. I REALLY hope they see some potential for users in a daw or notation program, or some kind of extention to, or version of VEP with such features.
-Sean
